Bengal Cat Forums

[Tally-Isham]

What are other breeder’s thoughts on selling kittens on the active register to novice breeders?

For me personally, the novice would have had to have carried out a great deal of research, show 100% commitment, be very aware of health issues in the breed, and to be passionate about the breed, and that is just for starters.

If we are completely happy with the new breeder, and agree to home a queen/stud to them, we would also want to make sure that they had the best possible quality Bengal for their program. Start as you mean to go on…Progressing the breed surely?

We would of course stay completely supportive and responsible 24/7, and mentor the novice breeder for as long as it takes.

We have been very happy with Charmain/Sarah and Helen our two ‘novices’ over the past few years. Both of these breeders have shown that they have the passion and the willingness to learn about the breed constantly, and they both deserved to have 'pick kittens' from our litters to help to progress their programs. These breeders are a true asset to the Bengal breed, although sadly they seem to be a rare person, as money seems to be a great motivation for many starting out breeding Bengals.

Reasons for not homing to novice breeders? For me, too many cats with too little space. Lack of research/knowledge. The breeder thinking they can ‘make money’ from breeding.... to name but a few!
Hence, we very rarely home breeding cats to new breeders (or established breeders for that matter). If we wouldn’t be 100% happy to keep the kitten for our own program, then the baby wouldn’t go on the active register at all, irrespective of whether the breeder is a novice or established.

Others thoughts?
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Best Wishes,
Maddy

[Zoekie]

That is a very good attitude to have, but unfortunately not everybody is so inclined. You just have to scour the advertising sites to see how many clearly unsuitable kittens are offered for "breeding".

My own experience was that some breeders asked me loads of questions, with which I was absolutely fine, and other breeders (highly experienced ones as well), was willing to sell me a kitten without any "homework" on their side.

[Thundercat]

This is a VERY good pont Maddy and I couldn't agree with you more!! In fact I presonally feel very strongly about this, and only earlier today I was discussing this very point.

There seem to be many breeders (some novice and some very experienced) who seem either not to know, or not to care what the breed standard is who are churning out very poor quality kittens, and even offering them for breeding to other novice breeders at the drop of a hat. Whilst I am sure these are all lovely cats in their own right, they are doing nothing towards furthering the breed, and negating all the hard work and effort that progressive breeders are making, and that is before we even get onto the issue of health risks.

I once spoke to a breeder enquiring about pets who knew nothing about me and yet immediately offered me 2 prices for the same poor quality (by breed standards - I'm sure she would have made a lovely pet) kitten depending on if I wanted her as a pet or a breeding/show girl. I gave her a piece of my mind as this girl would have been laughed off the show bench - yet she seemingly would quite happily have taken my money (or anybody else's) without asking another question if I was willing to pay the higher price.

IMHO I feel it is the responsibility of the breeder to ensure any cats they sell really are of breeding quality (and therefore they need to know what that is themselves first, AND be honest about it!), and also the responsibility of new breeders to do their research and ensure they know what they are looking for in terms of lines which complement each other to further the breed so they produce the highest quality kittens they can. Ideally it would be great to be mentored by the seller in terms of which features a first breeding girl needs to improve upon and give suggestions for what qualities are needed in a stud for her to be put with. Again that requires an ethical breeder who has a sold understanding of the breed, a passion to see it improve and a willingness to be open, honest and supportive about the kittens they sell.

As we have discussed many times before - health also has to be paramount. For example I feel there is little point in sourcing a high quality cat for breeding which is from a very high risk line for serious heriditary defects, or has some other health risk. Again this responsiblity would ideally be taken by both parties.

Sadly it seems clear that this really isn't the case all the time...

Oooooh - forgive me if I'm rantng a bit, but this one does make my blood boil! I'm laughing now, I can throw real queenie fits sometimes
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with best wishes

Tim and the Family Feline

Tigra, Azlan, Bilbo and Zion

[DianeM]

Hi, I have had The Posse now for 2 years plus and I care VERY passionately about the breed. I have always had the utmost support from their breeder at any time I have ever been concerned. I totally agree that you need to learn as much as possible, ask as much as possible about health and lines. It has taken me some time to decide that I would like to breed, a decsion I have not taken lightly as I am aware of the time and dedication involved and very much respect breeders'opinions. I am lucky that I do have room to accomodate and isolate litters and queens away from the posse as I think I've mentioned to you before Maddie. I haven't said much about my wanting to breed on the forum beacause I am very nervous about it and with the greatest respect, sometimes I don't feel that my beginning to breed would be welcomed. On the other hand, I know if I asked for help on this forum I would have it immediately which is wonderful. Please give us a chance xx
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Diane & The Posse

[Tally-Isham]

Hi Diane,

We would always give any novice breeder a chance that had researched the breed (and breeding itself) thoroughly, and they were going into breeding for the right reasons of course. We already have!

I sometimes though feel frustrated at some email enquiries from new breeders. Most haven’t done any research at all, and yet they have already homed queens, and sometimes a stud cat too, from established breeders who haven’t offered any mentoring.

For a new breeder to end up having 6 queens in their first year of breeding for example, just isn’t right, and with such a lack of knowledge and experience too is irresponsible on the part of the breeder/s for homing these cats in the first place.

I also find it frustrating that some decent novice breeders are being offered inferior quality Bengal queens and studs for their programs, when they should be being offered the same quality cats as an established breeder would surely? Progressing the breed isn’t just about your own program, but contributing to other breeders’ programs too, especially new breeders. The Bengal breed needs new breeders not only with passion, knowledge, commitment etc…but also with decent cats that will carry the breed forward in a healthy and positive direction.

Unfortunately there will always be established breeders, and newer breeders, who will home a cat as a queen just because she is a female, and she can have kittens, and breeders who will sell active cats of any quality to just about anyone to make those few extra £££’s.

It just saddens me to see so many pet quality Bengals in breeding programs, and I do feel very disheartened sometimes with breeding, and I wonder where the Bengal breed will be in 10 years time.
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Best Wishes,
Maddy

[DianeM]

Hi Maddie, I promise I have done a lot of research, I am probably over paranoid if you can be, about cleanliness and health and really have not undertaken this lightly. I have only one queen and have no intention of adding any more until I learn even more from her first litter. For me, I want to raise well socialised kittens who will be a delight for their new owners as much as my bengalis are a delight to me. Health is paramount to me and before she goes to stud, she and all the posse will be vet checked.
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Diane & The Posse

[ginnym]

I'm not a breeder and have no intentions of ever being one so I hope you don't mind me chipping in on this thread. Before you set out on any new venture, you have to do lots of research and where there's life involved, that's even more essential. Obviously you also learn by experience which sometimes you can only get once you've started but some people seem to set out breeding without doing even the most basic research. I am amazed by some of the questions I've seen on cat forums from new breeders - real basic things that I'd expect any breeder (or to be honest any pet owner) to know, however inexperienced they are.

I honestly think there should be some sort of licensing system that would prevent anyone from selling animals without meeting basic standards. It's probably totally impractical but surely worth considering.
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[DianeM]

I agree with you Ginny. For me the quality of the life of my cats is the most important thing and creating new life without relevant back up is something I would never entertain in any way shape of form.
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Diane & The Posse

[junglerose]

[DianeM]

I agree with you Elaine and that is exactly what I have done.
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Diane & The Posse

[glamzikitty]

Just read this thread , and thought i would add my tuppence worth.

In the 5 years that I have been breeding, I can honestly say,that I would only ever sell cats as breeders if they met the bengal breed standard.
This varies from breeder to breeder. I can count on one hand the amount of breeders I have sold.
Personally my aim is to breed good strong, healthy babies that have good type. Pattern & rosetting comes second. I have been scouring the world for a new Silver boy and quite frankly I haven't yet found one that i'm happy with. Alot of breeders seem to be concentrating on pattern but not on type. I have seen some truely beautiful cats, but the type seems to have been lost.
I have seen breeders advertising kittens as potential show/breeders that don't meet breed standards. For instance, Big ears, dipped noses,lockets, wrong shaped eyes,rib bars and quite frankly bloody wierd random markings, IE - what I can only describe as ginger splodges along the back line???

Anyone that is thining of goig into breeding Bengals MUST do their homework. Unfortunatley there are alot of unscrupulous so called breeders that will sell anything on as a breeder.
The only thing that reputable breeders can do is try their best to make sure that their babies are going to the right homes and that mentoring is available to ANYONE that needs it.

[junglerose]

I think that the Bengal is still a work in progress. I see that there is some frustration among breeders as regards type, but both pattern and type are pieces of the jigsaw, so both must be taken into consideration to move the breed forward so that on a few years we don't get cats with lovely type but coats and pattens that are not worth bothering about or vice versa.
I agree we have probably gone backwards re type but the patterns and coat quality on some cats generated nowadays definitely have the "wow" factor, and it is essentially what the breed is about and sets it apart from other spotted tabby breeds. However I do agree that we still need to be producing structurally correct cats, and breeders should try to breed closely to the standard.

Personally I feel the majority of pet owners and some breeders too, though appreciating the "wilder" type/body shape of some cats are not really that interested in whether the profile is slightly dippy or the ears are not set correctly, but are very much aware of the pattern on their cats, which after all differentiates them from the common brown spotted tabby and makes a Bengal a Bengal. No other domestic cat breed has rosettes like a Bengal, although I think Ocicats are developing some shading to their spots which is probably a precursor to rosetting in that breed.

I think it is a tall order at the moment while the Bengal breed is still in its infancy really for a cat to tick all the boxes, but there have been some stunning advances in the past few years and if it continues then hopefully more individual cats will be produced to satisfy both the "type" and the "coat" aficionados.
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Best Wishes
Elaine

[Tally-Isham]

I do think that the extreme 'typey' Bengals are lacking in coat contrast, and clarity, and with most having quite ticked coats. These huge whisker pads and chins look more like Tigers than a 'small forest dwelling wild cat' to me.


I agree that the clear defined rosetted patterns set the Bengal breed apart from other breeds.

I think the problem with the Bengal breed is that from the early days, breeders have rushed into producing the 'wow' coats/patterns without concentrating on, and working with, one trait first.

We seem to have breeders desperate for type, pattern/coat, white tummies; the whole 'package' far too quickly.

There is so much 'work' still to be done in progressing this breed, that sometimes I feel that breeders are too impatient to strive for everything, and unfortuntely it seems to be compromising the health of the breed too.

JMO
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Best Wishes,
Maddy

[junglerose]

[nuttybengals]

I am just about to throw something into the mix here.... What do breeders look for in their marble's, in terms of clarity of markings, glitter etc...??

Most people talk about spots & rosettes, but not much is said regarding marbles...

I am owned by 2 marble bengals ( yes you read that correctly, they own me..!!! ) and am very interested to hear what breeders feel is desirable/undesirable in the marbles...

Katie xx