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 Post subject: Re: Feeder Fish
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:15 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:04 am
Posts: 729
Location: Colorado, USA
To be honest, cats are often particularly cruel with their prey. There are many cats who quite enjoying playing with their food.


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 Post subject: Re: Feeder Fish
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:06 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:40 pm
Posts: 1586
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Mine did when he was young it was cruel by most people's definition. Now he figured out they last longer if he doesn't hurt them. He still plays with them but doesn't hurt them. Eventually they get tired then he quickly kills and eats them. Playing can last hours. Basically its like a game of tag he catches them without claws then lets them go and hide. He spends hours stalking them hiding under the couch or chair. Pouncey sometimes gets tired first even snuggling up with them. Then they both take a nap its quite cute actually. There's very little stress, actually they seem happy to get out of their cage and run around. I can take a piece of bread or small cap with water and they'll come up to me and eat and drink after hours of play. I don't expect people to agree I've been using mice for pet food for 20+ yr. I'm not a farmer I couldn't kill a cow and eat it. I think hunting is wrong especially just for "sport". You can't imagine my anger over snake skin shoes :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: Feeder Fish
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:40 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:04 am
Posts: 729
Location: Colorado, USA
I just don't know if I agree with your logic that the mice are happy to be fleeing for their lives from a predator.


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 Post subject: Re: Feeder Fish
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:36 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:08 am
Posts: 1721
Location: Melbourne, Australia
7Deadly$ins wrote:
I just don't know if I agree with your logic that the mice are happy to be fleeing for their lives from a predator.


Yeah I agree with this. Put yourself in the mouses shoes (although they're tiny). Someone lets you out of your house and chases your around for hours, punching you and belting you about every now and then. You find somewhere to hide, the whole time wondering if you're going to live or die. I wouldn't say that isn't stressful, in fact I would say it's one of the most stressful things I'd ever have to go through. Then you're exhausted then you finally get eaten. Nup. Not a fan of that logic at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Feeder Fish
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:22 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:40 pm
Posts: 1586
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
I understand truly I do. But if you've ever had a feeder mouse it's nothing like the wild version. Its not scared or skittish it doesn't hide in fear trembling. The image in your head is exactly like a wild mouse or when he was a kitten. Now its more like another pet. He is very gentle he doesn't want to hurt it just play. If the mouse goes somewhere I don't like I yell "get him". He picks it up like a mom with kittens and gently sets him down in the middle of the floor and lets it go. He just watches the mouse walk away. He waits till its out of site before going after it, like Hide and Seek. When he's done its one bite behind the neck no claws and its over. I'm not trying to change you minds but it not like you think. Remember these mice live there life crammed in a small cage constantly touched and interacting with people and other mice. If I handed you a mouse that's been playing for 4hr and one that's right out the cage you couldn't tell the difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Feeder Fish
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:29 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:04 am
Posts: 729
Location: Colorado, USA
Mice, I believe, have a genetic component which leads them to fear cats. I recall that some scientists managed to "turn off" the gene, leading mice to not be afraid anymore. But for the natural mice, I believe there's a genetic fear. Sort of how many people still have primal fear of many things.


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 Post subject: Re: Feeder Fish
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:47 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:40 pm
Posts: 1586
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Thats interesting I've never herd that but makes sense. After hours of play the mice will come right up to Pouncey and curl up agent is fur. They didn't turn off Pounceys gene, the look on his face is like ?WTF?! :roll: when this happens he either snuggles up too or runs away.
Pouncey was going nuts in my kitchen a couple of months back I then found mouse droppings in a drawer. I set a live trap and caught 2 wild mice. I put them in the bath tub to show Pouncey what was in the kitchen. They were terrified I didn't let Pouncey touch them it would have been cruel IMO. I didn't want to let them go either just to get back in the house. I not going to just kill and flush them, same goes for spiders, bees or anything else that ventures in, well maybe not flies or mosquitoes I guess. So I gave them to a cobra and he doesn't play with his food. I chose the cobra because his venom is different than most. It has calming and sedative properties. I didn't want to cause them any more stress.
You mentioned primal fear its very real I'm scared to death of spiders. So I keep a big one in my bedroom to overcome it. Its been there for years and I still wake up in terror thinking I feel it crawling on me.

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 Post subject: Re: Feeder Fish
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:24 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:40 pm
Posts: 1586
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
"we have examined mice with a gene knockout of the receptor for gastrin-releasing peptide that show enhanced fear conditioning"

Guess your right I learned something new today :D that explains why the don't bite when you pick them up. They literally have no fear.

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 Post subject: Re: Feeder Fish
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:21 pm 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:20 pm
Posts: 3
I know this thread is old but..

I just wanted to say thanks to the poster. Live prey saved my cat(s good looks).

I've been having a huge problem with my Bengal the past couple years ripping his own fur out. I've had him in for every test in the world multiple times including skin scrapings and the very expensive blood/fecal tests in the hundreds of dollars. I've tried multiple diets including the expensive royal canin PR, several other single protein grain free, and homemade raw from both chicken and rabbit (and let me tell you it was hard to source extra rabbit fat to add enough calories to the meat ugh!). I've played with daily until he gets tired out.

As far as I can tell he is just neurotic. Finally I tried giving him live feeder fish and mice and he was so excited and happy about it. Weird thing happened, he stopped ripping out his fur. Completely stopped. I tried switching to frozen because I thought maybe it was just the food but he starts up again. Went back to live. Been feeding him live fish and baby mice now for 6 months and all clear again.

I don't know what it is. When he gets to hunt every couple days, he stops ripping out his fur. As soon as there's a gap of 4 or 5 days without live prey he's right back to it. Pacing around the house, digging at the windows to try and get at birds (he clawed a hole in the plaster where the bird frequent). Howling with frustrating.

I guess his urge to hunt is so strong that he starts going crazy without the ability to satisfy it. Toys just don't work.

Just wanted to thank the OP. I was tired of having a bald Bengal and I felt bad for him because I knew something was wrong. Now I know what. This bengal needs to hunt. A friend of mine with hyperactive bengals has started as well with the live prey and reports that hers are much happier as well. I guess it's just cruel to deny a cat it's nature.


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 Post subject: Re: Feeder Fish
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:20 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 2:21 pm
Posts: 8002
I have an outdoor cat that will catch and kill lizards, squirrels and I saved a chipmunk from him the other day. I'd much rather he find and kill the moles that have invaded my yard. He tries (as does my bengal) but they are slow and don't catch them. I never knowingly let them have live prey. In my yard, they find wild ones and I don't know what diseases these things might carry. I know people give snakes live mice, but even though I don't like mice, I don't want to watch them being devoured!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Feeder Fish
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:16 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat
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Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:59 am
Posts: 4129
Location: Leicestershire, UK
Still can't possibly agree that this is acceptable l.

Your cat needed more play time from you. Not live prey.

Still illegal in the UK, thank god!

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 Post subject: Re: Feeder Fish
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:06 am 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:20 pm
Posts: 3
Best I can do is 2 hours a day. Sometimes 1.5. I love him and I love to play with him but I have a limit.

I have a number of toys for him, the box with the holes in it, wands with strings and birds on them, squeeking mice toys, the circular track with the ball in it, a huge cat tree with a dangling rope (that's his favorite), one of those tarps with the rotating arm that spins underneath the tarp, a remote control mouse,etc. I have a cat wheel as well but my other cats fancy it more than he does... he uses it once in a while though. I do take him on walks once or twice a week as well but he usually just walks about 100 feet then starts to roll around. He gets so nervous sometimes the other cats just end up avoiding him when he's in a mood. They are all friendly though they love him but they know when he's wound up. I tried him on some medication the vet gave me but it just made him sleep all the time, I don't think medicating him is a better option than this to be honest.

There's not much else I can do in the way of playing with him. This is really helping him and his mental state. I might not love watching animals die but they are going to die for his food one way or another and at least this way it seems to be improving his mental state quite a bit.

To each their own though. If it didn't help him so much, I probably wouldn't be all about it. ...but it's really changed him. He had a young chick this morning, wouldn't eat the legs though.


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 Post subject: Re: Feeder Fish
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:54 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 2:21 pm
Posts: 8002
Ugh! So gross to send a young baby animal to its death! Raiden has brought in baby squirrels and birds from his enclosures and I always try to scoot them back outside, much to the dismay of my bengal. But, I love wildlife and cannot imagine doing something intentional to hurt them. I don't care about a cat's natural instinct to hunt. If Raiden doesn't want to chase a mechanical mouse around the floor or a Da Bird flying high above him, too bad. That's all he gets. :biggrin: :biggrin:


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 Post subject: Re: Feeder Fish
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:50 am 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:37 pm
Posts: 15
i do this with minnows in the tub, grand kids think its funny as heck..... with the cats in the water fishing with their paws......


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 Post subject: Re: Feeder Fish
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:13 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:44 pm
Posts: 673
I don't agree with this at all, I wouldn't even give mine day old dead chicks, I don't feed raw food either.
Mine do not go outside so they don't hunt.
But I suppose it's up to the individual what they do, I'm not the sort of person to get into an argument about it, it's just something I wouldn't do.

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