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 Post subject: Coronavirus :(
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:25 pm 
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Senior Bengal
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As some of you know, we've been struggling with soft stools from our little Orion since we brought him home almost 3 months ago, ran a basic fecal and full PCR on him, and he only showed positive for light giardia and a false positive for Clostridium. TF was negative. We treated him for the giardia, but he's still having the soft stools.

We are preparing to have him neutered as we are coming up on his 6mo bday. 7mo is our agreement with the breeder. Last weekend we ran a full blood panel and fecal test again because I'm terrified about FIP and wanted to know if he had the coronavirus, and if the treatment for Giardia worked. The good news is the Giardia is cleared. The bad news is, he has coronavirus. His leukocytes are also very high, so it would seem he's actively fighting off something, so maybe it's the coronavirus.

We are realizing the persistent coronavirus has likely been the cause of his soft stools all along. I know everyone says we probably have nothing to worry about because FIP is rare, but I'm really freaked out about this. The research I've done indicates that often times a stressful event like neutering can trigger the onset of FIP. Ugh what do I do? Do you think if he is predisposed to FIP, that not neutering and trying to prevent stressful situations will make a difference? We have to neuter him to get his papers, and I want those to know more about his lineage, but honestly it's not worth it if it increases his chances of contracting this horrible disease.

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~*~Holly~*~

Orion ~ Light Gold Black Rosetted Bengal, born 5/19/15
Apollo ~ Tuxedo Marbled Tabby, born 1/7/12


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 Post subject: Re: Coronavirus :(
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:15 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:22 pm
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I really feel for you and wouldn't know what to advise.

I am probably not the best person to advise as you know I lost my boy to FIP so I am still getting over the trauma of it all. Hopefully someone on here will be able to give you a more level headed response.

With regards to the papers from the breeder you could always contact them with your concerns and maybe they will be able to advise on both? Possibly put your mind at ease with regards to FIP and they also may agree to giving you the papers given your reasons for not wanting to neuter at this stage.

Again hopefully someone will be able to advise you better on that too.

I am not 100% sure but think I read somewhere that coronavirus mutating is much less common is older (possibly adult) cats so maybe this is something you could research more with regards to holding off on the neutering.

So sorry you are so freaked out by this and I can completely understand you worrying as you love your baby so much but remember coronavirus is very common and there are plenty of cats on here who have it and whose owners don't know and they are fine.

Also sorry about my recent post on FIP, that couldn't have helped your anxiety either (((hugs))).

_________________
Oscar and Jasper (or one ear and two ears as dh calls them) black rescue mogges

RIP my sweet baby Dexter, Snow Bengal 19/5/14 to 5/3/15 and my lovely dear old friend Muskey, Brown Burmese put to rest aged 15 on 14/11/15.

Debbie


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 Post subject: Re: Coronavirus :(
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:48 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 2:21 pm
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What does your vet say about neutering? I think Orion should be neutered to avoid any marking or other intact male behavior. This has nothing to do with registration papers. Does your vet feel having the surgery could bring on a full-blown case of FIP? They don't seem to know what triggers it to evolve! I am so very sorry, but at least now you know and you can deal with it as best you can. Neutering is so much simpler than spaying. If it were me and my vet concurred, I would have him neutered as soon as possible. The best thing you can do is to stop worrying. Orion can probably sense your stress and knows something else is up. He receives great care through his vet .... trust what the vet says.


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 Post subject: Re: Coronavirus :(
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:10 am 
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Senior Bengal
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Thanks Debbie, you already knew I was worried about this. You haven't done anything to worsen my anxiety about it. You do make a good point that there are likely many bengals even on this forum who have or had it and their owners didn't know, and are fine.

Sherry, the vet basically says he would just be more dominant if we didn't neuter him. He said that if he didn't come into contact with other female cats, he probably wouldn't start spraying but that isn't a guarantee. From what I understand, every time the virus replicates, there's a chance the strain will mutate and they often go through MANY mutations. It's only one of these mutations that will cause FIP, and there's no way to know if our kitty has that one. And even of those kitties that do get the mutant strain, some will have a strong enough immune system to fight it off, but others will not, and those are the ones who succumb to FIP. So the vet thinks we probably don't have anything to worry about, but he agrees that the research I sent him does indicate that the stress of a neuter can weaken the immune system enough to allow the mutated FIP strain to get the upper hand, if they are already fighting the mutated strain. And my concern is that many vets, including ours, haven't had a lot of first-hand experience with FIP, so they just don't really know what they're talking about.

I guess the question we will try to get answered prior to neutering is what is the overall condition of Orion's immune system right now? If the high lymphocyte WBC count on his blood panel is indicative of a strong immune system (which I'm hoping it is, as SOMETHING is making all those lymphocytes so it must be his immune system right?), then maybe we'll just give it a few weeks and hope it gets a handle on whatever he's fighting, then complete the neuter. If it's the opposite, maybe we wait 6 months, or a year? If he does happen to get the mutant FIP strain in the coming months, at least we will be doing everything we can to make sure we don't worsen the condition of his immune system...

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~*~Holly~*~

Orion ~ Light Gold Black Rosetted Bengal, born 5/19/15
Apollo ~ Tuxedo Marbled Tabby, born 1/7/12


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 Post subject: Re: Coronavirus :(
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:26 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat
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Oh noooooooo!!! You too?! I JUST learned Suri has corona virus as well. Im absolutely heartbroken. Apparently, the breeder I purchased her from s cattery is BADLY infected. Ive even been in contact with several other individuals who purchased kittens from this cattery.... every single one of them has CV or has already lost their kitten to FIP. Im so so so scared. I cant imagine losing Suri. So....not only does she have cataracts in BOTH eyes and a heart murmur...but she has corona virus as well. Wow.

Of course, the breeder has now stopped all contact with me. I would NEVER send Suri back to this man, but he NEEDS to have buyers complaining (warning) to anyone who will listen. Selling sick kittens is SO wrong on SO many levels. If he screws me out of my TICA papers, which he promised I would receive after she is spayed next month, hes going to have a VERY pissed off cop knocking on his door.

What symptoms has Orion displayed so far? Suri has only had a constant stuffy nose with occassional sneezing that even Clavomox hasnt fixed. Im REALLY REALLY hoping her case stays minor and does progress. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Coronavirus :(
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:59 am 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:37 pm
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we have a Bengal and a Bengal savannah cross, took to vet 3 months ago (currently 10 months old) loose stools, put them on metonidole sp? 250 mg, it worked, two weeks ago same thing, real loose like dripping. Convinced vet to run test for TF, but stools got so bad we put on Metonidole again. Vet said we cant run test since on meds. Tiggers are getting firmer, Lucy is still loose, not dripping but if this occurs again, what test? Is there a test that covers everything? My vet did not hear about TF and this site is teaching my vet what to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Coronavirus :(
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:22 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat
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There is no blanket test that covers every issue. You have to specifically ask for individual testing such as corona virus, giardia, TF, etc. There are MANY vets out there who dont even know what like TF or corona virus in cats IS. I was shocked to discover that.

Are you talking about the drug metronidozol? (flagyl) Thats an antibitoic used to treat IBD, giardia and other gastro issues in cats.

If youre still having the same issues and metro isnt totally fixing it....there is something else at bay.


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 Post subject: Re: Coronavirus :(
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:27 am 
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Senior Bengal
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DeputyMP24 wrote:
What symptoms has Orion displayed so far? Suri has only had a constant stuffy nose with occassional sneezing that even Clavomox hasnt fixed. Im REALLY REALLY hoping her case stays minor and does progress. :(


Oh no Deputy, I'm sorry to hear that! It's better knowing, than to not know...I feel more empowered to make better health decisions for him armed with this info. Unfortunately most people whose kitties have succumbed to FIP on this forum seemed to have not known that they had the coronavirus...and it's worth noting that even of all those that do have it, it's extremely common and supposedly only a small percentage go on to contract the FIP mutation and lose the battle. I think it's also worth mentioning that although your breeder sounds to be doing unethical things all around, it is likely that most catteries have a problem with Coronavirus, it's just so hard and expensive to eradicate.

Orion's only symptom really seems to be loose stools and a little fresh blood/mucus sometimes. He has a little bit of sniffly stuff every now and then, nothing major and we attribute that to allergies. Coronavirus is an enteric (?) illness meaning it is isolated to the digestive system, so the only symptoms, if any, attributable to FCoV are mild diarrhea...

I hope Suri gets on the up soon as well!

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~*~Holly~*~

Orion ~ Light Gold Black Rosetted Bengal, born 5/19/15
Apollo ~ Tuxedo Marbled Tabby, born 1/7/12


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 Post subject: Re: Coronavirus :(
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:10 am 
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Senior Bengal
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markihri wrote:
we have a Bengal and a Bengal savannah cross, took to vet 3 months ago (currently 10 months old) loose stools, put them on metonidole sp? 250 mg, it worked, two weeks ago same thing, real loose like dripping. Convinced vet to run test for TF, but stools got so bad we put on Metonidole again. Vet said we cant run test since on meds. Tiggers are getting firmer, Lucy is still loose, not dripping but if this occurs again, what test? Is there a test that covers everything? My vet did not hear about TF and this site is teaching my vet what to do.


The most extensive fecal test you can do to my knowledge is a PCR, which includes TF, Clostridium Perfringens, Criptosporidium, Camplylobacter, Salmonella, Giardia, and Parvovirus. You have to specifically request a test of the fecal sample for Coronavirus, it's not a part of the PCR panel.

You can also test for Coronavirus via a blood test, it recognizes FCoV antibodies that your cat would only have if its been exposed to and/or actively fighting Coronavirus.

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~*~Holly~*~

Orion ~ Light Gold Black Rosetted Bengal, born 5/19/15
Apollo ~ Tuxedo Marbled Tabby, born 1/7/12


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 Post subject: Re: Coronavirus :(
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:43 am 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:37 pm
Posts: 15
Not wanting to take over your post, metronidozol looks like what is written on bottle or close. Honestly learning a lot on here, they have been on meds for a week as of today. These illnesses described, are they breed specific or common? I got the impression from my vet was give your cats this, they will be better if not they will grow out of it!!!! FYI both cats came from the same breeder. Previous Bengal had no stool problems. Deputy.... you seem on top of this, or anyone else as far as it goes. What should I do? Have meds for another week, I was planning on staying on course till meds ran out then if not solved what would you recommend? The most extensive fecal test you can do to my knowledge is a PCR, which includes TF, Clostridium Perfringens, Criptosporidium, Camplylobacter, Salmonella, Giardia, and Parvovirus. ???


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 Post subject: Re: Coronavirus :(
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:16 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat
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Coronavirus IS considered very common in cats, but is of course still cause for concern. Its estimated that coronavirus antibodies are present in 80-90% of cats in catteries, and in 10-50% of cats in single-cat households. FIP is found to develop in 5-10% of these cases. Scary stuff.

These are not breed specific issue, but your kitties most likely will NOT just grow out of it. If meds arent treating the issue, then there is something else going on that metro wont fix.

DEFINITELY finish treating your kitties as per your vets instructions, even of your kitties show signs of improvement. If after the recommended doseage nothing improves, make another vet appt. At that point Id request a fecal or blood test for coronavirus. Seeing as you got both kitties from the same breeder and both have the same symptoms....my thoughts lean towards coronavirus. If thats the case, the metro will not help.

The tests mentioned in the post above are for internal parasites and bacterias. Start with the FCoV test. If the FCoV test shows negative, then request the PCR panel. If THATS negative...perhaps youre looking at IBD, or maybe a change in diet would help?



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 Post subject: Re: Coronavirus :(
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:50 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:22 pm
Posts: 730
The ONLY medication that works for TF is ronidazole.

Please don't waste your time with metronidazole it won't work. This does work for Giardia though.

_________________
Oscar and Jasper (or one ear and two ears as dh calls them) black rescue mogges

RIP my sweet baby Dexter, Snow Bengal 19/5/14 to 5/3/15 and my lovely dear old friend Muskey, Brown Burmese put to rest aged 15 on 14/11/15.

Debbie


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 Post subject: Re: Coronavirus :(
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:50 pm 
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Senior Bengal
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Posts: 89
DeputyMP24 wrote:
Coronavirus IS considered very common in cats, but is of course still cause for concern. Its estimated that coronavirus antibodies are present in 80-90% of cats in catteries, and in 10-50% of cats in single-cat households. FIP is found to develop in 5-10% of these cases. Scary stuff.

These are not breed specific issue, but your kitties most likely will NOT just grow out of it. If meds arent treating the issue, then there is something else going on that metro wont fix.

DEFINITELY finish treating your kitties as per your vets instructions, even of your kitties show signs of improvement. If after the recommended doseage nothing improves, make another vet appt. At that point Id request a fecal or blood test for coronavirus. Seeing as you got both kitties from the same breeder and both have the same symptoms....my thoughts lean towards coronavirus. If thats the case, the metro will not help.

The tests mentioned in the post above are for internal parasites and bacterias. Start with the FCoV test. If the FCoV test shows negative, then request the PCR panel. If THATS negative...perhaps youre looking at IBD, or maybe a change in diet would help?



Ugh shoot me now, I just typed out a long response to this and lost it because the site logged me out! :mad:

ETA: The only problem I see with this advice is that while it would be nice to know if kitties have coronavirus/FCoV, it isn't treatable. If they have it, they have it and there's not much you can really do besides hope their immune system kicks it and it doesn't mutate into FIP before that. Not to mention the fact that testing for FCoV antibodies is much more invasive as it requires a blood sample. At least with the full PCR panel you can rule out all of those other ailments which are treatable and curable, and it only requires a fecal test, the sample for which is very easy to collect. You want this test especially if it is TF, as it's the only test that will confirm it, and if it is TF you want to get a leg up on it NOW. Debbie (Eggman) can confirm this as her poor Dexter had Giardia, TF, AND Coronavirus, the vet treated the TF second which they struggled with for a long time, and in hindsight she suspects the hit to his immune system all that time from the TF was what ultimately caused him to succumb to FIP. TF can be very hard to clear, and will likely require several treatments. Ronidazole is the only thing that can treat TF.

Also, the fact that both cats show symptoms doesn't ensure the only issue is coronavirus. Even if only one of the two cats came from the breeder with any of these ailments, most or all of them including coronavirus are spread through the litter box. So unless both kitties have used separate litter boxes since they came to you, and you use different scoops for each one, they likely spread whatever they have to each other anyway. This is another reason that TF can be so hard to get rid of, because they just keep passing it back-and-forth to each other.

Good luck!

_________________
~*~Holly~*~

Orion ~ Light Gold Black Rosetted Bengal, born 5/19/15
Apollo ~ Tuxedo Marbled Tabby, born 1/7/12


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 Post subject: Re: Coronavirus :(
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:28 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 2:21 pm
Posts: 8012
I have learned a lot from this post -- thank you Holly, Debby, Deputy and Markihri. The sad thing is that nobody actually knows IF or WHEN the coronavirus will mutate into FIP. However ... just knowing that the virus is there allows you to look for other signs.

Holly, I would not have an intact male. Mine was neutered at 12 weeks and marks outside. There's no guarantee your kitty will never start! And then you have to worry about Orion smelling a female in heat -- they can smell them miles away Neutering also helps prevent some diseases. I would definitely do the neutering now rather than decide to do it later, when the disease may have progressed further. I know it's a chance you take and only you can make that decision.

I do agree with vets who do not understand all the diseases cats can get, especially bengals. When you say TF, they look at you like "what's that?"! This forum has so much information -- it's great that a vet would come on here and read up on some things.

I hate that Holly and Deputy are going through something like this. It's heart wrenching as your babies are only kittens. Hopefully, Suri and Orion will live, long, long lives.


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 Post subject: Re: Coronavirus :(
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:37 am 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:37 pm
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CUT AND PASTE FROM WEB MD, What Are the Symptoms of FIP

What Are the Symptoms of FIP?
FIP manifests in a “wet” form and a “dry” form. Signs of both forms include fever that doesn’t respond to antibiotics, anorexia, weight loss and lethargy. In addition, the wet form of FIP is characterized by accumulation of fluid in the abdominal cavity, the chest cavity, or both. Cats with fluid in the chest exhibit labored breathing. Cats with fluid in the abdomen show progressive, nonpainful abdominal distension. In the dry form of FIP, small accumulations of inflammatory cells, or granulomas, form in various organs, and clinical signs depend on which organ is affected. If the kidneys are affected, excessive thirst and urination, vomiting and weight loss are seen; if the liver, jaundice. The eyes and the neurologic system are frequently affected, as well.

It also went on to say in 95% of the cases it is fatal. My cats are not going down hill. So I am thinking it may be nothing major. Should be done with meds by Friday, then wait and see. Most recent stool update, its soft like a pancake batter but a bit more texture. (Just a FYI my wife asked what I was doing, talking about cat stools on the internet with people I don't know, what has become of our lives)
DIET??? What should I be feeding the 10 month old kittens?? The came to us eating royal canine kitten chaton, we give them this as treats, primary food is Iams for indoor cats (iams kitten Chaton was their food during the heat of the squirts) we also give them some canned friskies in the morning. The dry is left out all day. Do you think the diet could be to rich?


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