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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 1:51 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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... Yeah I didn't mean to make this post here.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 2:23 am 
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JamieAndMyrtle wrote:

I do agree with Louise-Paisley that the marketing for Maine Coons and Siameses by RC is absolute bullcrap. But as far as dry food being the devil, not so much. I mean, if someone's cat is eating dry food and getting infections because it's dehydrated, as a responsible pet owner he or she SHOULD be aware enough to modify the diet to suit the individual cat's needs. However, if a dry food-eating cat is perfectly healthy and hydrated on dry food, why fix what isn't broken?


Simply because you don't know it is broken until it is. A cat is perfectly healthy until it is not, or that is the way it appears, but just because the signs are not yet visible does not mean that all is completely well.

I am speaking from experience here, I have had two cats develop urinary issues and the dry diet was quoted as being "Unsuitable" by the vet, that was the first time I was told that almost every case of urinary problems was in cats fed a dry diet.

My neighbour also fed dry food and his 6 year old tom developed a urinary blockage and needed a catheter and hospitalisation at a cost of £1100. His vet stated categorically that the dry diet had led to this issue and to stop feeding dry food to all his cats with immediate effect.

When switching my cats from dry to wet their water consumption reduced significantly, but their urine output doubled, irrefutable proof that they did not compensate for the dry food by drinking as much water as they were loosing.

Dry food has its place but I think a 100% dry diet is not good for a cat and there is very good evidence to support that claim.

Yes some cats do live quite happily on it without any visible sign of a problem, and some people smoke 20 cigarettes a day without getting lung cancer but that does not mean smoking is not bad for you does it? so does the fact that some cats are apparently healthy on dry mean that dry is good for them?

The simple fact is that feeding a completely dry diet very significantly increases the risk of urinary problems later in life, and due to the manufacturing process used it is the most risky food in terms of toxicity and nutrient imbalances.

Dry food is convenient for humans, and due to the byproduct coating (without which cats would never eat it) irresistible to cats, the analogy to cigarettes is not a million miles away from the truth. If someone has to feed dry then it will be a whole lot healthier for the cat if it is at least a 50/50 split between wet/dry, at least you are then getting some of the missing fluid into the cat.

Of course this is not the issue of the thread, but it is important information that owners should be aware of and does connect with the original post by means of RC's marketing strategies and urinary dry formulas.

IMO a company which claims each breed, age range, activity level, long hair, short hair (hell they would even sell a different food for different coat colours if they thought people would be stupid enough to fall for it) is hardly what I would call a company with cats interest at heart, all they are looking for is max market share and profit.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 7:01 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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Again folks - it's the tone that's upsetting and worrying.

Since I've been misinterpreted, and I can accept it was my choice of words that have led to this, I shall clarify.

I don't believe in the marketing. I do believe in research. To imply those things are one and the same, and to glibly use words such as 'stupidity' in a paragraph, is symptomatic of what I find concerning.

I think that a bi-product of their business is research. I do think their main objective is to make money. I believe research is a good thing*. I have never purchased a main coone, a siamese, or any Royal Canin product number 1 - 101, except for Hairball.

I purchased that because my cat was vomiting excessively and my vet thought it would help. It did.

Brad offered some advice which worked for him. I now feel he's being rather unfairly treated. This forum is used by a lot of people, many of whom come to it because they want assistance and advice. Having looked at this thread, they'd just see an argument, which is not helpful to them but rather castigates them for any choices they make. Surely you could have put forward your views on dry food, which incidentally I agree with, in a much kinder way?

*Incidentally, I also believe in making money. I find it helps feed the cats.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:24 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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Although it can be a little confusing reading about everyone's opinions on wet/dry feeding, I expect most readers of this forum have their own ideas but are willing to consider changes if they think they would be beneficial to their cats. And a bit of argument about it makes it all interesting! and shouldnt put anyone off - and I hope it doesn't.

Just to make a point that no-one has mentioned. If you're out all day - leaving dried food down for your cat - particularly in hot summer weather - does make sense, as flies lay eggs on wet cat food within a matter of minutes - yucky, but in my experience, true. I never leave uneaten wet cat food out for long for that very reason. (Tho usually Khan wolfs it down and then asks for more). Now I don't work such long hours and there's usually someone around anyway that's not such a problem anymore but I'm sure this is the reason why many cat owners do use dry food, at least some of the time.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:10 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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http://www.acreaturecomfort.com/royalcaninrecall.htm

Cheap ingredients, poor quality control, inadequate testing = recalls, health issues and pet deaths. Just because the company has a façade of respectability and "caring" does not mean they are any different.

Pet food is about making money from crap that we won't/ can't eat. It makes no difference if that is RC, Hills, Wallmart, every penny they spend on research is to make more money not better food, every dollar Hills spends on "Educating vets" is advertising not education. To think otherwise is indeed stupid.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:35 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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Louise-Paisley wrote:
Simply because you don't know it is broken until it is. A cat is perfectly healthy until it is not, or that is the way it appears, but just because the signs are not yet visible does not mean that all is completely well.


Is that not surely the whole point?
Feeding ANY diet can end up being "bad" for a cat. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. It may be that in the future we can all laugh and tut at feeding for instance raw beef to cats, as it may be highly inappropriate, or cranberries? or potatoes? I do not know, no-one as yet knows. We all work within the confines of known science.

Of course a diet that is low on hydration is always going to be an issue for some cats, but it doesn't necessarily follow that changing to certain other foods is the answer to prevent disease. Especially home-made diets that have no scientific nutritional basis, with no clinical trials to back them up. To make claims re the benefits of some foods and derogating others, is not really based on fact, nor "proven" data.
We can all say that this worked for me as Bradg has done, or my cats "appear" to be healthy, but not one of us can hand on heart say that, "my cats will live longer and healthier lives than yours because I feed mine x, y and z"
Urinary tract stones can have many causes, not just diet or chronic dehydration. Genetics, infection, congenital abnormalities of the urinary tract, metabolic disorders, drugs, high blood pressure can all cause stones.

ALL participants in the pet food industry whether they be the established manufacturers, the "whole food", "natural" brigade of manufacturer, or the advocates of raw diet recipes are all guilty of "money-making". The string of raw diet products produced on the back of that principle, not to mention the fame, books, CDs, downloads, internet glory which comes with it, are not all done solely for the "good of cats".
ALL, not only the large corporations, are there basically for one thing - MONEY.

Money makes the world go round; money is always needed to pay for research, some of that research has in fact benefited cats, so perhaps not all bad.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 3:06 pm 
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junglerose wrote:

Is that not surely the whole point?
Feeding ANY diet can end up being "bad" for a cat. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. It may be that in the future we can all laugh and tut at feeding for instance raw beef to cats, as it may be highly inappropriate, or cranberries? or potatoes? I do not know, no-one as yet knows. We all work within the confines of known science.



Yes, but this is not a reason not to try tough, or to completely abandon common sense. If you are making chicken over rice for your family, and your lovely cat comes up to you with innocent eyes, and meows pathetically, and you decide to give her a treat, I'm guessing not one of us would consider pouring her a cup of the rice you are cooking into her bowl as the snack. Correct? It will always be the chicken. So why do we throw that obvious common sense out the window when it comes to selecting our diets for our cats?

We hear people say "Weeeeeell, nobody knows for sure what's best, so we'll just feed our cat whatever". And that "all cats are different", as if the mere act of selecting a diet makes it the defacto best possible thing for their particular cat. There really is an underlying, objective truth to nutrition that is independent of ones belief system. The trouble of course is that nobody knows precisely what that truth is, but it's not a reason not to try to discover it.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 3:42 pm 
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chrissie wrote:

Just to make a point that no-one has mentioned. If you're out all day - leaving dried food down for your cat - particularly in hot summer weather - does make sense, as flies lay eggs on wet cat food within a matter of minutes - yucky, but in my experience, true. I never leave uneaten wet cat food out for long for that very reason. (Tho usually Khan wolfs it down and then asks for more). Now I don't work such long hours and there's usually someone around anyway that's not such a problem anymore but I'm sure this is the reason why many cat owners do use dry food, at least some of the time.


Yea, that's very true, with kittens in particular you almost need to do that. Also if you have an extremely fussy cat who will not eat a proper quantity of food in one sitting, and insists on "grazing" then you are kind of stuck. You can feed canned or raw food at mealtime, but if they don't eat enough to sustain them you need to supplement it with some dry food.

One danger though if you just leave dry food down all the time is that cats can get overweight pretty quickly, unless the portions are very carefully measured out.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:00 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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junglerose wrote:

Of course a diet that is low on hydration is always going to be an issue for some cats, but it doesn't necessarily follow that changing to certain other foods is the answer to prevent disease.
...
...
...
Urinary tract stones can have many causes, not just diet or chronic dehydration. Genetics, infection, congenital abnormalities of the urinary tract, metabolic disorders, drugs, high blood pressure can all cause stones.
...
...
...
Money makes the world go round; money is always needed to pay for research, some of that research has in fact benefited cats, so perhaps not all bad.


So 6 different vets saying that over 90% or urinary problems in cats that they have treated can be directly attributed to the cat being fed a dry food means nothing, and switching from dry to wet which will result in a MUCH lower risk of urinary tract problems is not preventing disease?

Yes I agree there are numerous causes of urinary tract issues in cats, but what is the number one cause, what is the MOST likely thing to cause it? A dry diet, which is also the easiest thing you can change to prevent it. Of course not every cat that is fed a dry diet is going to develop urinary issues, and not every cat that is fed wet is going to be immune from urinary issues, but that does not change the fact that a dry diet gives your cat a greater chance of urinary problems than the chance you smoking 20 cigs a day is going to give you cancer.

Of course money makes the world go round, of course any business exists to pursue it, and any business will do the minimum required work for the maximum returned profit. The minimum amount of work for the pet food industry is considerably less than the human food industry, pet food manufacturers are self regulated and this is the reason that there are more pet food recalls than human food recalls, and the reason that more serious problems occur in pet food which can result in thousands of deaths. Every corner that can be cut is cut, and 'research' done is to maximise profit, minimise costs and prevent lawsuits from owners of deceased pets.

I have worked in the pet food industry, I have seen it with my own eyes, I KNOW what the truth of the matter is and that the rose tinted picture they paint of superb choice cuts of meat and quality ingredients is as far removed from the truth as the earth is from from the sun. Unfortunately I am a minority, very few people actually get to see behind the scenes and see the true dirty picture that is the start of all pet food production, the best you can hope for is a guided tour of the clean end of the process where the raw ingredients have already been converted into something which looks reasonable before even arriving at the plant.

Don't get me wrong, this is not aimed at RC or Hills specifically, this is the whole industry. Even your top of the range gourmet pet foods start life in the same disgusting way, RC and Hills are no better nor worse than others, they all have the same goal which is to make **** loads of money from something that has pretty much absolutely no other use what so ever other than fertilizer. Claims that they are doing otherwise are nonsense.

By all means look the other way, what they eye doesn't see doesn't exist; live your life in happy ignorance of the truth if you wish, but the truth is out there if you wish to seek it despite their best efforts to hide it from you.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:08 pm 
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brianj12 wrote:
So why do we throw that obvious common sense out the window when it comes to selecting our diets for our cats?


I do not think common sense is being thrown overboard by anybody here no matter what they feed. Many consider very carefully what they feed and choose what is best for them.
Lack of common sense did not drive Bradg to look for alternatives when his cat was ailing on the diet it was on.
Lack of common sense would have been not to try anything to relieve his cat if its symptoms and let it be euthanased.

Many people have the problem with loose stools in their Bengals post TF or other GI disease.
If I had the choice of spending hundreds of pounds on expensive feed that made not one whit of difference to any cat I had, or someone telling me that after doing all that he had found one that works, I know what my "common sense" approach would be.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:32 pm 
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junglerose wrote:
Lack of common sense did not drive Bradg to look for alternatives when his cat was ailing on the diet it was on.
Lack of common sense would have been not to try anything to relieve his cat if its symptoms and let it be euthanased.


You keep coming back to that, over and over and over, but since like the 3rd or 4th post in the tread, the discussion has had nothing at all to do with that. It's like you are arguing with somebody that is not here, because nobody is taking the other side of that argument. But no matter what I say that doesn't sink in, so I'll stop trying.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:50 pm 
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Well i was going to stay out of this debate, but i would just like to say.... the argument that we dont know what food is best for cats imo is rubbish, ALL cats are obligate carnivores and have survived for thousands of years on a diet of small prey, MEAT, with a small amount of fiber being in the stomach content of the prey.... just coz we have domesticated them, this has not changed their digestive systems, they are built to digest raw meat plain and simple... i get elaines point about raw feeders not always doing it properly and the overuse of supplements etc, but done properly i believe its the most species appropriate diet.
Having said that its up to each cat owner what they feed and im not here to convert anyone, i just find it strange when people say raw is no good or unknown, a proper raw diet is not bad or unknown, its what cats have been surviving on forever....

As to runny poo, 1 of my cats, shiloh had/still has on occasion runny poo, after all tests and all parasites ruled out, all tests negative, he was diagnosed with IBS, i find if i add pureed pumpkin it firms up his poo when his ibs attacks, also psyllium husk which i buy and add in... xx

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 7:31 pm 
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bradg wrote:
yeah, we actually tried the raw diet in our trials with Roscoe... He sure did love eating it, but it had disastrous consequences...didn't help one bit.

At least RC uses quality proteins as their main ingredient versus corn and other grains found in most cat food.


when you say it had disastrous consequences what do you mean, i understand it didnt help your boy, but disastrous consequences implies it caused other medical problems? what were they?

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:19 pm 
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junglerose wrote:
Louise-Paisley wrote:
Simply because you don't know it is broken until it is. A cat is perfectly healthy until it is not, or that is the way it appears, but just because the signs are not yet visible does not mean that all is completely well.


Is that not surely the whole point?
Feeding ANY diet can end up being "bad" for a cat. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. It may be that in the future we can all laugh and tut at feeding for instance raw beef to cats, as it may be highly inappropriate, or cranberries? or potatoes? I do not know, no-one as yet knows. We all work within the confines of known science.

Of course a diet that is low on hydration is always going to be an issue for some cats, but it doesn't necessarily follow that changing to certain other foods is the answer to prevent disease. Especially home-made diets that have no scientific nutritional basis, with no clinical trials to back them up. To make claims re the benefits of some foods and derogating others, is not really based on fact, nor "proven" data.
We can all say that this worked for me as Bradg has done, or my cats "appear" to be healthy, but not one of us can hand on heart say that, "my cats will live longer and healthier lives than yours because I feed mine x, y and z"
Urinary tract stones can have many causes, not just diet or chronic dehydration. Genetics, infection, congenital abnormalities of the urinary tract, metabolic disorders, drugs, high blood pressure can all cause stones.

ALL participants in the pet food industry whether they be the established manufacturers, the "whole food", "natural" brigade of manufacturer, or the advocates of raw diet recipes are all guilty of "money-making". The string of raw diet products produced on the back of that principle, not to mention the fame, books, CDs, downloads, internet glory which comes with it, are not all done solely for the "good of cats".
ALL, not only the large corporations, are there basically for one thing - MONEY.

Money makes the world go round; money is always needed to pay for research, some of that research has in fact benefited cats, so perhaps not all bad.



hi elaine, just reading your post, and i dont mean to be picky but when you say.......... Especially home-made diets that have no scientific nutritional basis, with no clinical trials to back them up......
home made diets that are based say on small prey ratio ie, 80% meat, 10% bone 10% organ which is pretty close to a prey diet, then surely the scientific nutritional basis is thousands of years of cats surviving on this diet.... compared to what 40 or so years of commercial foods....
and with vets apparently seeing more cats in their surgeries in the last few years than ever before, and many probs being diet related xx

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:54 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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A very interesting read for those who are interested in the subject of dry and wet foods, which looks at the research that has been undertaken in linking diet and illness.

Edited to add the link:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... =pmcentrez

Cos it would be the most bizarre post without it!


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