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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:22 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:47 pm
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Location: UK
Great article and pics AnnC. :D

I agree I think the difference in expression of many things are due to polygenetic effects and possibly environmental effects too.

I know that white spotting and tortoiseshell cats are a different thing but cloning doesn't make for identical cats either see
http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Cloned_Cat.html
I wonder of a cloned Bengal would have exactly the same patterns of rosetting as its donor. :?:

If it was all down to a handful of genes then breeding for colour and pattern would be easy.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:10 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:49 pm
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Location: Oxford, UK
Thanks for all the information Ann and Elaine, there is so much to learn. Interesting stuff indeed, and all this came from noticing that colouring whilst stroking my kitten! :lol:

Also thanks for the additional interesting information you sent me on Marbles Elaine. Just to reiterate, those marbles I referred to are pictures of Marbles I came across whilst browsing which looked nice to me in the photographs. I certainly haven't done any research in that regard, nor am I making any recommendations.... just purely commenting on the photos I saw online...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:04 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:43 pm
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Location: France (Dijon)
I'm reading a thesis about the amber colour in NFO (in case anyone understands enough french... http://www.vet-lyon.fr/53851603/0/fiche ... 4985519111, thesis number 15)

And yes, the "yellow" colour at the bottom of black hairs is typical of all cats (domestic...) so I guess the "right down to the skin" black colour is typically an ALC inheritance ;).

Checked yesterday on Chaos (F7 or +), that's not his case :lol: (but the skin is still black where there are spots I think... that's something different to an all black hair !)

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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 5:09 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:36 pm
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Hi I am on a mission and would love to find out as much as possible about genes in cats especially Bengals.

Is there a book that I could buy. I find it so fascinating.

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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 5:28 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:47 pm
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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Robinsons-Genet ... 0750640693

Robinson's Genetics for Cat Breeders and Veterinarians

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:04 am 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:28 am
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Location: Davis, CA
junglerose wrote:
I know that white spotting and tortoiseshell cats are a different thing but cloning doesn't make for identical cats either see
http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Cloned_Cat.html


This is all explained on that page, but the reason that CC doesn't look like her mother is that her mother is a calico tabby and in a calico each individual cell either has orange turned on or off (it is X chromosome inactivation, a form of dosage compensation in females due to the fact that males only have one X chromosome in every cell). So the progenitor cell that was used for CC was of the type that had the orange-producing X chromosome irreversibly inactivated.

The white spotting has to do with migration of melanocytes from the neural crest...at some point they are just "running out." However their white markings are pretty similar, I'd say...

So I wouldn't extrapolate this to the specifics of tabby phenotype or rosetting, but it would be interesting to see, if not just to try to figure out exactly how much of the phenotype is attributed to genes rather than (mostly physiological/developmental) environment...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:42 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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Location: UK
Quote:
So I wouldn't extrapolate this to the specifics of tabby phenotype or rosetting, but it would be interesting to see, if not just to try to figure out exactly how much of the phenotype is attributed to genes rather than (mostly physiological/developmental) environment...


Good point. It would be interesting to see the patterns on cloned Bengals.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:31 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:49 pm
Posts: 584
Location: Oxford, UK
genehunter wrote:
junglerose wrote:
I know that white spotting and tortoiseshell cats are a different thing but cloning doesn't make for identical cats either see
http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Cloned_Cat.html


This is all explained on that page, but the reason that CC doesn't look like her mother is that her mother is a calico tabby and in a calico each individual cell either has orange turned on or off (it is X chromosome inactivation, a form of dosage compensation in females due to the fact that males only have one X chromosome in every cell). So the progenitor cell that was used for CC was of the type that had the orange-producing X chromosome irreversibly inactivated.

The white spotting has to do with migration of melanocytes from the neural crest...at some point they are just "running out." However their white markings are pretty similar, I'd say...

So I wouldn't extrapolate this to the specifics of tabby phenotype or rosetting, but it would be interesting to see, if not just to try to figure out exactly how much of the phenotype is attributed to genes rather than (mostly physiological/developmental) environment...


Fascinating! I just took a closer look at this picture, and now the irreverisble inactivation of orange production in the clone is explained I'm amazed at how similar the original cat and it's clone appear. I wonder how reproducible this is? I hadn't really considered the genetics behind this X inactivation in tortoiseshells/calicos when I first looked at this.

Indeed I am mildly curious about how a cloned Bengal would compare to it's parent, but I'm still far more curious about the mechanism behind to solid black hairs in cats with more striking black expression in their markings.

Indeed Zion is heavily ticked with very dark ticking, yet he has more striking contrast as his spots are so black. These types of black markings seem very common amongst ALCs having seen a few and many pics. But they seem relatively rare in Bengals by comparison, and it appears to be very hard to maintain this phenotype even in EG Bengals, although I've seen it much more in some lines than others.

For me this would be a interesting to see if this expression were maintained in a clone. l

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:28 am 
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Bengal Cat

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:42 pm
Posts: 34
Location: Burlington, Ontario
I came here just for this topic. Sorry if this is a question or comment already made but I am short on time.

I don't understand the codes :oops: but I get an idea of what you are saying.

When the Bengal breed first started it says that they bred an Asian Leopard cat with a domestic cat. First, what kind of a domestic cat? Like a Heinz 57 type of cat?

And I have been searching for a picture of a marbled Asian cat and I cant find one, I found a leopard with beautiful markings but I would not call them marbled. So where does this come from?

Also most of the pictures of the Asian Leopard cat have the colours of the picture on this page. Are there different kinds of ALC or do Bengals share the markings with the domestic cat?

Do all Bengals have webbed feet? Did ALC's breed with other kinds of wild cats?

What exactly were the very first breeders trying to achieve in the pelt definition?

The breeder I bought my cat from said the more rosettes the better, is this true. Tavi has a lot of spots but not rosettes. And before you think differently I love my cat and I wouldn't care if he had pink and white polka dots. I'm just curious.

Thats a lot of questions but I am a new Bengal mom!

To me this looks like the perfect ALC
Image
The prettiest one anyway

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:16 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:47 pm
Posts: 3809
Location: UK
Tavi wrote:
I came here just for this topic. Sorry if this is a question or comment already made but I am short on time.

I don't understand the codes :oops: but I get an idea of what you are saying.

When the Bengal breed first started it says that they bred an Asian Leopard cat with a domestic cat. First, what kind of a domestic cat? Like a Heinz 57 type of cat?
Yes, some were, some were Ocicats, Egyptian Maus, Burmese, ASH, there are even mention of the Maine Coon being introduced. Many cats and breeds were used to introduce desirable traits, however not all lines were successful, with some lines being dead ends, so many of the bengals today have common ancestors.

And I have been searching for a picture of a marbled Asian cat and I cant find one, I found a leopard with beautiful markings but I would not call them marbled. So where does this come from?
The Marble would came from the domestic input.

Also most of the pictures of the Asian Leopard cat have the colours of the picture on this page. Are there different kinds of ALC or do Bengals share the markings with the domestic cat?
There are many types of ALC. The spotted tabby pattern/colouration is found in many breeds including the domestic shorthair/longhair
Quote:
(The ALC) has a base fur colour that ranges from yellow/brown to grey/brown, found mostly in the north of its range. The underparts, chest and lower head are usually white as is a large spot which is commonly found on the back of the otherwise black ears. In varying intensity, depending on the sub-species the leopard cat is covered with medium to large dark brown to black spots which often coalesce into solid stripes on the top of the back and thin stripe markings on the top and side of the head. http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/agarman/lepcat.htm


Do all Bengals have webbed feet?
No idea of the incidence of that trait.

Did ALC's breed with other kinds of wild cats?
Like the Scottish Wild Cat the ALC does mix with the local domestic cat population. The Savannah is occasionally bred with the Bengal to produce a double hybrid, but the Bengal is not a permitted outcross for the Savannah

What exactly were the very first breeders trying to achieve in the pelt definition?
A mini domestic leopard was the goal originally, not to recreate the ALC. There is a huge dfference of opinion amongst breeders as to what would be the perfect Bengal.

The breeder I bought my cat from said the more rosettes the better, is this true. Tavi has a lot of spots but not rosettes. And before you think differently I love my cat and I wouldn't care if he had pink and white polka dots. I'm just curious.
Rosetting is desirable and is preferable to single spots in the breed standard. Pink and white polka dots would be highly desirable in any cat, he would be worth a fortune. :)

Thats a lot of questions but I am a new Bengal mom!

To me this looks like the perfect ALC
Image
The prettiest one anyway

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:29 pm 
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Bengal Cat

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:42 pm
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Location: Burlington, Ontario
Thank you so much, I am glad you had the answers I was looking for!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:57 pm 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:20 am
Posts: 21
Location: Norway
Tavi wrote:

To me this looks like the perfect ALC
Image
The prettiest one anyway


This cat is not an ALC, but either an Oncilla or a Margay. But I agree, it is a very pretty wildcat :)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:02 pm 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:20 am
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Location: Norway
Thundercat wrote:
genehunter wrote:
junglerose wrote:
I know that white spotting and tortoiseshell cats are a different thing but cloning doesn't make for identical cats either see
http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Cloned_Cat.html


This is all explained on that page, but the reason that CC doesn't look like her mother is that her mother is a calico tabby and in a calico each individual cell either has orange turned on or off (it is X chromosome inactivation, a form of dosage compensation in females due to the fact that males only have one X chromosome in every cell). So the progenitor cell that was used for CC was of the type that had the orange-producing X chromosome irreversibly inactivated.

The white spotting has to do with migration of melanocytes from the neural crest...at some point they are just "running out." However their white markings are pretty similar, I'd say...

So I wouldn't extrapolate this to the specifics of tabby phenotype or rosetting, but it would be interesting to see, if not just to try to figure out exactly how much of the phenotype is attributed to genes rather than (mostly physiological/developmental) environment...


Fascinating! I just took a closer look at this picture, and now the irreverisble inactivation of orange production in the clone is explained I'm amazed at how similar the original cat and it's clone appear. I wonder how reproducible this is? I hadn't really considered the genetics behind this X inactivation in tortoiseshells/calicos when I first looked at this.

Indeed I am mildly curious about how a cloned Bengal would compare to it's parent, but I'm still far more curious about the mechanism behind to solid black hairs in cats with more striking black expression in their markings.

Indeed Zion is heavily ticked with very dark ticking, yet he has more striking contrast as his spots are so black. These types of black markings seem very common amongst ALCs having seen a few and many pics. But they seem relatively rare in Bengals by comparison, and it appears to be very hard to maintain this phenotype even in EG Bengals, although I've seen it much more in some lines than others.

For me this would be a interesting to see if this expression were maintained in a clone. l


I bet a cloned Bengal would not be identical in its markings. Close, but not identical. As where the markings show up and the exact shape is more or less the same mechanism as with the white spotting.

As for the black hairs to the ground. Polygenes and no extension gene input (I do believe that our "sorrell" Bengals are a product of the extension gene). I have several cats with black hairs, but few go all the way down to the skin. I'm working on it though ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:02 am 
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Senior Bengal

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:05 pm
Posts: 78
Location: Florianópolis, Brazil
Great article!!! However some pictures to illustrate the differences would make it a bit clearer.

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:33 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:47 pm
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Location: UK
Sorry, it is quite long thread which differences do you mean?

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