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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:12 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:47 am
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Location: Rockford, IL
Hi,

I know you said you would leave the Cinnammon to the Abyssinian owners but now you have really piqued my curiousity. What pairing might have produced my girl Sakura. I know she is a Cinnammon Marble Bengal and I think it is a recessive gene?

Would you mind explaining her colour in a bit more depth please? I haven't found any other cinnammon owners on the forums yet.. but you never know. These photos are to show her from different angles. I hope there are not too many!!

Image

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:22 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:49 pm
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Location: Oxford, UK
Hi Ren,

I guess I didn't explain that very well, but I see what you mean, and those cats both have beautiful contrast, but if you look at the full length hairs at the edge of the shaved part you can see the hairs are still banded even in the dark markings, darker at the surface but lighter nearer the body rather than black all the way through. The banding looks a lot darker on the marble girl that the spotty girl, but you can see they are still banded.

I'll try and take some pics comparing my cats when I part the fur the skin to show what I mean. Sorry I'm sure I've taken this thread off on a massive tangent with what started as a silly little question....but because I've never seen this before it just intrigued me...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:39 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:55 pm
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Location: south east england
I see what you mean...the spotty is definately slightly lighter in the black areas, but the marble is black to the skin in the black areas. It lightens with the tri-marbling of course.
I can imagine how much more striking it is in the early gens or the tight-coated darkly marked cats.
It's a shame they don't have to shave the sides & go in when neutering the boys or we'd have a good opportunity to see it on Zion! :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:44 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:47 pm
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Location: UK
Quote:
I guess I didn't explain that very well, but I see what you mean, and those cats both have beautiful contrast, but if you look at the full length hairs at the edge of the shaved part you can see the hairs are still banded even in the dark markings, darker at the surface but lighter nearer the body rather than black all the way through.


Its called "floating" markings or "floating" spots and is very common in Bengals, even in some very nicely contrasted ones.

Normal Black cats are often lighter underneath, not as light as a smoke but the hair is not uniformly black from the tip to the skin. My moggie black cat is dark grey at the skin. He hasn't ever had the reddish tinge seen in some black cats though, due to they think to sun and saliva. Of course he is not the product of years of selection, it would be interesting to know if a black Persian or perhaps a Bombay have the lighter undercoat too.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:10 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:47 am
Posts: 1056
Location: Rockford, IL
Sorry I seem to have kind of dropped in to the middle of an existing conversation - but hopefully AnnC will get back to me on my question.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:42 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:49 pm
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Location: Oxford, UK
OK, here are some pics comparing Tigra, Azlan and Zion. The flash has made them all look a bit lighter than they are in reality, but even so I'm sure you'll see what I'm getting at. Sorry they are a bit blurred - I was struggling trying to keep them still (against their wishes!) and part their fur with one hand and take a picture with the other. Also I suspect these will be huge, I forgot to resize them before uploading and still haven't figured out how to resize them in Tinypic :oops:

I've parted each of their fur in the middle part of their dark spot/marble pattern markings (as seen in the pic immediately above it) to show the colour of the hair shafts...

Tigra:

Image

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Azlan:

Image

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Zion:

Image

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I've looked very closely, and I can't see any banding at all in the hairs in Zion's spots. They really are jet black from root to tip (in contrast to what Elaine was saying about lighter undercoats seen even on black domestic cats), unlike lighter areas where the banding is obvious. This is why it fascinated me so much. I remember Gaynor telling me his markings were "black to the skin" ages before I collected him. I had NO appreciation for what she was talking about until I brought him home even then it took me a couple days before I noticed the striking difference between him and the SBTs coats.

It really is quite striking as you can see such an obvious difference when you stroke him compared to stroking the others. Although it would be truly astonishing if he was clear coated, as he is quite ticked.

Also no worries Shantra, I previously said I was very interested in the basis of the range of different colours - so what you posted was completely related to that question also - although to a great extent we HAVE gone of the subject of genetics which I apologise for, as I think we've established we don't know the genetic/epigenetic basis for this.... but I'm pretty sure this is the same as what you would see in that Leopard and Jaguar also.

Is this seen in many Bengals? I've never noticed it before. I never noticed it on my previous F2 boy, but then I wasn't looking for it back then...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:49 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:47 pm
Posts: 3809
Location: UK
Shantra,

The Cinnamon is a recessive gene bl, so if both your cat's parents carried the gene, then assuming they were both normal brown spotted Bengals they must have been Bbl. If bred to other Bengals then that fact may never have surfaced, as no Cinnamons would have been produced.
The fact that they both carried this gene means that your cat was born.
Cinnamon is not an accepted colour in Bengals, so it is not desirable as regards breeding them, so most breeders would try and breed away from it.

It is not that they are not stunning cats, it is just that the colour is not really applicable to the "small forest dwelling cat" that is referred to in the Bengal standard. It is the same with blue, chocolate, lilac, fawn, caramel and other non standard colours.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:51 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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Location: Oxford, UK
Ok I literally just got this other one of Zion now he is sleeping..... You can see the difference between the hairs in his black spots and his lighter acerage in this one:

Image

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:10 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:55 pm
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Location: south east england
That's a much clearer picture Tim, you can really see the depth of the black colour there as opposed to the more dark grey on the SBTs.

Sorry Shantra! Didn't mean to ignore your question, just got caught up in this intriguing discussion :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:42 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:47 am
Posts: 1056
Location: Rockford, IL
I saw that Ren!

Thanks for the explanation on Sakura. I knew that she wasn't an accepted colour but until you explained I didn't know why and now that you have I understand. Well sort of. Because aren't all marbles nothing like the jungle cat? I understand the snows because they kind of look like snow leopards, but I don't think any ALC's are marbled are they? But marbles are being bred and selectively to produce certain effects. As an owner of 2 marbles (not intentionally) I am wondering about that too. Ren I know you breed marbles and really like them. I mean.. I can understand all those colours being on the list but then.. why any marbles at all?

Also... so Sakura was a cross between 2 brown spotted that carried bl? Or can 2 marbles carry bl and produce a marbled cat like her? Very new to all this and it is fascinating!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:54 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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Location: south east england
The genes for pattern are carried seperately from the genes for colour. So Sakura's parents could have been cinnamon themselves or cinnamon carriers & they could have also been marble or marble carriers. Or one parent could have been & one could have just been a carrier...hope that makes sense! As the genes for both traits are recessive, they could be carried for many generations without surfacing until paired with another cat that carries for it.

With the marbles, Jean Mill (the founder of the breed)'s original vision was to create a "lounge leopard" rather than a small forest dwelling cat. She originally had nothing in the standard but spotted until she produced her first marble & as it was something so unique & different to any of the domestic patterns, she adjusted the standard to allow for it.
Some still prefer the idea of creating a miniature "big cat" & so the marbling is reflective of a clouded leopard or king cheetah. There is also a small species of wild cat called a marble cat.
Some others of us aren't intending to reproduce another cat in particular, but instead are trying to create something which is completely unique, unlike any other cat either wild or domestic but there is a long way to go :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:37 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:47 am
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Location: Rockford, IL
WOW thank you Ren, that was very educational. So my Sakura is rare and special.. grinz. It is going to be very interesting to watch the development of Bengals and I will stick with this thread to learn more.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:08 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:49 pm
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Location: Oxford, UK
Thanks Ren,

Glad I could finally show what I was talking about. Zion won't ever have the striking contrast like the pics Elaine showed even eonce his fuzzies pass because he is really ticked, but his sister Hazina (that Karen has) has the same depth of black, but she has a much clearer and much softer coat, which also has a slightly warmer colour to it, so she has a much more striking look than Zion. Her photos simply haven't done her justice (no offence to you photography Karen! :oops: :lol: ), but I'm rapidly learning how hard it is to capture how the cat looks "in the fur" on camera.

I've just become really intrigued as to how common this is in lines and how reproducible it is. I suspect such marking are far less likely to fade with age than the floating markings. I can already see that at 1 year old Azlan doesn't have quite the contrast he used to when his coat first cleared, but I don't mind that personally as I really like the lighter more cheetah-like look too, and it's nice to have pets with such a different look.

Also going back to the Marble pattern - Ocelots often have a pattern similar to marbling. I love some of the marbles of Adventure Beach Bengals, and Sierragold Bengals, as well as Roman Bengals. Linda's High grade F2 Marble girl Ree looks simply phenominal in her pics. I'm sure there are many others so Apologies for specifically naming just a few certain breeders (I'm always conscious of trying to avoid doing so but these are just 4 that I happened to come across whilst surfing that stood out to me).

I think the marble pattern has a great deal of potential for development into something stunning, but it seems to be really neglected, and of less popularity

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Tim and the Family Feline

Tigra, Azlan, Bilbo and Zion


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:51 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:43 pm
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Location: France (Dijon)
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I'm assuming given the range of coat colours that Eumelanin and Phaeomelanin are not the only 2 pigments involved, I can see how this could quickly become quite complex.


Wrong - they're the only pigments :lol:

The variation comes from the density, the repartition and so on... ;)

EG, blue is "diluted" black. But it's still eumelanine !

It's just that instead of being spread out in the hair, the pigments are more "clumped", so the hair is like "black and white" instead of all black, and you've got an overall grey/blue impression of color...

Edit : found the pics :

Black hair left and blue hair right :

Image

Image

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:04 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:43 pm
Posts: 2445
Location: France (Dijon)
Oops...

Well sorry you were partly right ;).

There's only 2 pigments, but there are variations of the pigments :lol:

B -> black is eumelanine, fully oxydated
b -> chocolate is eumelanine, partially oxydated : the pigment is more "rounded" and smaller, the light behave differently, so we see it as brown and not black
b' -> cinnamon is still eumelanine but even less oxydated so it's even lighter...

Still the same pigment, but the "finishing touches" are slightly different due to a variation of the enzyme responsible for the oxydation of eumelanine ;) (TYRP-1).
In chocolate, there's an insertion of one codon, or a substition (both "work" and there's a third mutation in chocolate occicats not identified yet), and in cinnamons, there's a "stop codon" substituted in the DNA sequence for the protein which is too small to work because of that ;)

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