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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:59 am 
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Bengal Kitten

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I hope this is the right section. But On June 5th Simba became a daddy :) The Mama is Nala Our Manx they had 5 babies 1 Manx that has no tail at all - Mommy has a little "bunny tail" as I call it, But that baby has a birth defect :( I am pretty sure its from mama having 5 babies and he/she got in a position and couldn't stretch out and his ligaments and tendons got tight, and in turn he now has both back feet turned backwards - its the equivalent to human club foot (that's how I explained it to my daughter the "Grandma" of the babies, because she herself was born with club foot,

there are 3 grey babies all 3 have some peach color on them 1 having more than the others, one is very dark almost black but has I guess its called orange in it, you can see some faint markings but he/she is so dark colored it's hard to see, one is marked so neat! I don't know for sure if its considered Marbled, I tried to get good pics but couldn't get the little booger sit still (and I thought taking pics of Parrots was a pain LOL)

He's either a really good daddy, or a dead beat daddy LOL I've never had indoor cats be parents so not sure how the males are supposed to be :redface: but he'll go peek in and then go on his merry way, he prefers to be outside like normal sitting on his stump or his rocking horse ( he has taken claim to a bouncy horse my boyfriend brought over for when I'm watching his grand babies)

Okay here are the pics :) - Be Prepared to say "aww" a ton We do! :D

Since I have a good bit, I'm just going to post the link to my photobucket page they are on, But I will post one(or a couple) of the one I am curious as to what the "color" would be called.

The Album
http://s640.photobucket.com/user/atvchi ... t=3&page=1

The baby I'm curious about - the darker one with a lot of "orange" coloring
that is up front
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu12 ... 216875.jpg


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:37 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat
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Are both parents health tested? hcm scanned pkdef and I don't know the health tests for manx? Is this a registered outcross program?

And just what I do but Id never ever let a un-neuter male around my kittens, they aren't neutered you don't know what they might do or how they might re-act, I just wont chance it. He goes outside not neutered?

Looks like 3 blue/grey & 2 classic ginger/brown classic tabbies, they wont be called marbles as they arent bengals, mum is a tortie so Im guessing the blues maybe blue torties, but again maybe to early to tell.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:37 pm 
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Bengal Kitten

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Taylorbaby wrote:
Are both parents health tested? hcm scanned pkdef and I don't know the health tests for manx? Is this a registered outcross program?

And just what I do but Id never ever let a un-neuter male around my kittens, they aren't neutered you don't know what they might do or how they might re-act, I just wont chance it. He goes outside not neutered?

Looks like 3 blue/grey & 2 classic ginger/brown classic tabbies, they wont be called marbles as they arent bengals, mum is a tortie so Im guessing the blues maybe blue torties, but again maybe to early to tell.



He's not outside roaming around, he has a cat run, and a cat pen they go in (similar to a dog kennel only completely closed in and it locks from the outside) , and he's not around the babies unattended either , and I don't have a clue what all those abbreviations you used mean, They have both been to the vet and have every shot they are supposed to have, that most indoor cats don't even get. Most people do not even get their cats rabies shots rather they are indoor or outdoor or both, when most states have it as a law, They have those as well.

He's either a Silver Bengal or a Blue Bengal I asked on here a while back, but I forget which one was the general conses was. since his under coat is white, but he does have a little bit of peach coloring on his front paws and face just like the 2 greyish babies with tails

And why wouldn't the babies be considered a Bengal? That is how Bengals were created, With the wild cat and a typical domesticated house cat, so why would it make a difference what the mom was if it's a domesticated cat bred to a Bengal , they'd still be Bengals, I am aware they are Bengal - Manx crosses but Every Bengal would be a cross of some domesticated cat since that is how they were created to begin with. Just like every dog in fact is a "mutt" since there is no breed of dog that is just 1 breed to make it they're all created by other breeds including the pit bulls, even the beagle is more than 1 breed bred together to create it


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:20 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:47 pm
Posts: 3809
Location: UK
atvchick95 wrote:
Taylorbaby wrote:
Are both parents health tested? hcm scanned pkdef and I don't know the health tests for manx? Is this a registered outcross program?

And just what I do but Id never ever let a un-neuter male around my kittens, they aren't neutered you don't know what they might do or how they might re-act, I just wont chance it. He goes outside not neutered?

Looks like 3 blue/grey & 2 classic ginger/brown classic tabbies, they wont be called marbles as they arent bengals, mum is a tortie so Im guessing the blues maybe blue torties, but again maybe to early to tell.



He's not outside roaming around, he has a cat run, and a cat pen they go in (similar to a dog kennel only completely closed in and it locks from the outside) , and he's not around the babies unattended either , and I don't have a clue what all those abbreviations you used mean, They have both been to the vet and have every shot they are supposed to have, that most indoor cats don't even get. Most people do not even get their cats rabies shots rather they are indoor or outdoor or both, when most states have it as a law, They have those as well.

He's either a Silver Bengal or a Blue Bengal I asked on here a while back, but I forget which one was the general conses was. since his under coat is white, but he does have a little bit of peach coloring on his front paws and face just like the 2 greyish babies with tails

And why wouldn't the babies be considered a Bengal? That is how Bengals were created, With the wild cat and a typical domesticated house cat, so why would it make a difference what the mom was if it's a domesticated cat bred to a Bengal , they'd still be Bengals, I am aware they are Bengal - Manx crosses but Every Bengal would be a cross of some domesticated cat since that is how they were created to begin with. Just like every dog in fact is a "mutt" since there is no breed of dog that is just 1 breed to make it they're all created by other breeds including the pit bulls, even the beagle is more than 1 breed bred together to create it


I am afraid you have a misguided perception of the origin of the Bengal and what constitutes a Bengal.
The Bengal nowadays is a pedigree cat, it is a pure bred pedigree cat and the only recognised cross is to the Asian Leopard cat and not to the Manx, nor to any other cat breed. Registration is required and the pedigrees are held by Registration bodies. No-one can just take two unregistered cats and breed them together and expect them to be called Bengals.
If you cross a Cocker spaniel with a Poodle they are not called "Cocker Spaniels" nor "Poodles", they are in fact Cockapoos, so why would cross kittens be called Bengals?
As for the abbreviations - HCM is a genetic heart disease very common in Bengals and diagnosed by an ultrasonic scan carried out by a cardiologist and PK defic is another disease prevalent in Bengals: 1 in 50 have the disease - and a DNA test is required to identify at risk individuals. As for the Manx - The defective gene responsible for the loss of the tail also affects other parts of the spine and may cause severe spinal and/or neurological problems.
I am afraid there is a lot of hostility towards anyone breeding cross cats from purists, pedigree breeders and followers, but do not be downheartened, as the kittens are now here, they are lovely little things and I do not really think it is the place of the forum to stand in judgement and alienate anyone who now has small kittens, whatever their views re cross-breeding.

The kittens are very cute and I am glad you have taken your cats to the vet, I hope that you keep the kittens till they are 13 weeks and give them both sets of vaccinations before they leave like responsible pedigree breeders do.

Quote:
The GCCF strongly recommends that no kitten should be permitted to go to a new home before 13
weeks of age. A least seven days prior to this the kitten should have completed a full course of
vaccinations, including a health check, given by a Veterinary Surgeon or by a listed Veterinary nurse
given under the direction of a Veterinary Surgeon. The breeder should ensure that the kittens are house
trained, inoculated and in good general health.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:37 pm 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:44 am
Posts: 11
junglerose wrote:
atvchick95 wrote:
Taylorbaby wrote:
Are both parents health tested? hcm scanned pkdef and I don't know the health tests for manx? Is this a registered outcross program?

And just what I do but Id never ever let a un-neuter male around my kittens, they aren't neutered you don't know what they might do or how they might re-act, I just wont chance it. He goes outside not neutered?

Looks like 3 blue/grey & 2 classic ginger/brown classic tabbies, they wont be called marbles as they arent bengals, mum is a tortie so Im guessing the blues maybe blue torties, but again maybe to early to tell.



He's not outside roaming around, he has a cat run, and a cat pen they go in (similar to a dog kennel only completely closed in and it locks from the outside) , and he's not around the babies unattended either , and I don't have a clue what all those abbreviations you used mean, They have both been to the vet and have every shot they are supposed to have, that most indoor cats don't even get. Most people do not even get their cats rabies shots rather they are indoor or outdoor or both, when most states have it as a law, They have those as well.

He's either a Silver Bengal or a Blue Bengal I asked on here a while back, but I forget which one was the general conses was. since his under coat is white, but he does have a little bit of peach coloring on his front paws and face just like the 2 greyish babies with tails

And why wouldn't the babies be considered a Bengal? That is how Bengals were created, With the wild cat and a typical domesticated house cat, so why would it make a difference what the mom was if it's a domesticated cat bred to a Bengal , they'd still be Bengals, I am aware they are Bengal - Manx crosses but Every Bengal would be a cross of some domesticated cat since that is how they were created to begin with. Just like every dog in fact is a "mutt" since there is no breed of dog that is just 1 breed to make it they're all created by other breeds including the pit bulls, even the beagle is more than 1 breed bred together to create it


I am afraid you have a misguided perception of the origin of the Bengal and what constitutes a Bengal.
The Bengal nowadays is a pedigree cat, it is a pure bred pedigree cat and the only recognised cross is to the Asian Leopard cat and not to the Manx, nor to any other cat breed. Registration is required and the pedigrees are held by Registration bodies. No-one can just take two unregistered cats and breed them together and expect them to be called Bengals.
If you cross a Cocker spaniel with a Poodle they are not called "Cocker Spaniels" nor "Poodles", they are in fact Cockapoos, so why would cross kittens be called Bengals?
As for the abbreviations - HCM is a genetic heart disease very common in Bengals and diagnosed by an ultrasonic scan carried out by a cardiologist and PK defic is another disease prevalent in Bengals: 1 in 50 have the disease - and a DNA test is required to identify at risk individuals. As for the Manx - The defective gene responsible for the loss of the tail also affects other parts of the spine and may cause severe spinal and/or neurological problems.
I am afraid there is a lot of hostility towards anyone breeding cross cats from purists, pedigree breeders and followers, but do not be downheartened, as the kittens are now here, they are lovely little things and I do not really think it is the place of the forum to stand in judgement and alienate anyone who now has small kittens, whatever their views re cross-breeding.

The kittens are very cute and I am glad you have taken your cats to the vet, I hope that you keep the kittens till they are 13 weeks and give them both sets of vaccinations before they leave like responsible pedigree breeders do.

Quote:
The GCCF strongly recommends that no kitten should be permitted to go to a new home before 13
weeks of age. A least seven days prior to this the kitten should have completed a full course of
vaccinations, including a health check, given by a Veterinary Surgeon or by a listed Veterinary nurse
given under the direction of a Veterinary Surgeon. The breeder should ensure that the kittens are house
trained, inoculated and in good general health.



this is not my 1st rodeo, I am a breeder of parrots which is much more difficult than a dog or cat breeder, Most parrot breeders allow their birds to leave at 4 weeks old, when they are just learning to fly, also clip them fully when they have not learned to fully fly, None of my babies leave my home until at least 12 weeks old and have flown for a good bit and I won't clip a bird who does not have flying down pat.

It would be no different with the cats, I flag ads all day long on Craigs list of people getting rid of kittens or pups before 8 weeks old, no its not a law for the average pet owner to have to keep them until 8 weeks old, BUT its called being responsible Something I am, something I have tattooed into my kids brain, They don't leave until they are fully ready. It's what RESPONSIBLE PET OWNERS Do, no matter if they are labeled as a breeder or not, I don't even care if the person found the animal, they took it in it became their responsibility

and in my personal opinion there is no such thing as cockapoos or any other designer label they put on a dog, they are run of the mill mutts.and I honestly think people do it just to raise the price tag, I have seen them being sold for MORE than a cocker spaniel or a poodle Which by the way I love mutts they've been some of the best dogs I've owned My best being a stray and a mix of a Australian Shepard, Collie, Husky and god only knows what else, Did she get some fancy label she was called a mix, a mutt or a Hinze 57 - because it is what she was. but unforuntally its done in the bird world too the only difference is when you make hybrid birds, It can hurt them , and it will eventually kill the pure species that were used, When it's done in dogs and cats it typically doesn't do much to them, as each breed typically has some sort of Health concern (where not all birds do) and yes some cross breeds make those concerns happen more often. But in birds it can kill them, it can make them have no gender at all, it can make them have both genders at the same time, it can give them mental issues, it can shorten their normal life span and when it is macaws who can live 50+ years and it can shorten them to 10-30 years that's a problem!,and people do it on purpose and then sell them for double if not more the going price for the pure bred that it took to make the hybrid "Mutt" parrot

yes birds are different from dogs and cats, They are extremely different they are HARDER to raise, care for, and properly take care of. I'm not saying dogs and cats are a breeze, but in all honesty compared to raising parrots properly cats and dogs are a breeze

but I didn't come here to be criticized because I allowed my Manx and Bengal to have babies, I came here to find what color the one would be considered since it did not seem to fall into the tortoiseshell category like it's mother is, and I am not trying to "follow" in no ones foot steps or anything else, I don't care what other people do , I do my own thing, I don't try to be like no one else but me.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:10 pm 
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Posts: 3809
Location: UK
The kitten you want advice on looks like a full coloured brown classic tabby, is it a boy or a girl?

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Last edited by junglerose on Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:22 pm 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:44 am
Posts: 11
junglerose wrote:
The kitten you want advise on looks like a full coloured brown classic tabby, is it a boy or a girl?


I'm not 100% sure but I found a website with pics and explanations yesterday on how to sex them at birth, By their girly/boy parts being spread further apart. if its accurate it would be a boy


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:47 pm
Posts: 3809
Location: UK
atvchick95 wrote:
junglerose wrote:
The kitten you want advise on looks like a full coloured brown classic tabby, is it a boy or a girl?


I'm not 100% sure but I found a website with pics and explanations yesterday on how to sex them at birth, By their girly/boy parts being spread further apart. if its accurate it would be a boy


If it is a boy it cannot also be tortie, but if it is a girl then it could also be tortie as well as classic tabby.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:44 pm 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:44 am
Posts: 11
junglerose wrote:
atvchick95 wrote:
junglerose wrote:
The kitten you want advise on looks like a full coloured brown classic tabby, is it a boy or a girl?


I'm not 100% sure but I found a website with pics and explanations yesterday on how to sex them at birth, By their girly/boy parts being spread further apart. if its accurate it would be a boy


If it is a boy it cannot also be tortie, but if it is a girl then it could also be tortie as well as classic tabby.


Ahh so Tortie is like Calico, Usually always female?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:35 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:23 am
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atvchick95 wrote:

Ahh so Tortie is like Calico, Usually always female?


Wikipedia says: "In genetic terms calico cats are tortoiseshells in every way, except that in addition they express a white spotting gene. There is however one anomaly: as a rule of thumb the larger the areas of white, the fewer and larger the patches of ginger and dark-or-tabby coat. In contrast a non-white-spotted tortoiseshell usually has small patches of color or even something like a salt-and-pepper sprinkling. This reflects the genetic effects on relative speeds of migration of melanocytes and X-inactivation in the embryo."

Yep, almost always female. Unless it's a male who is XXY. :O

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:13 pm 
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Very pretty litter of "mutt" kittens as you seem to prefer the term.

Not really sure why you have posted here regarding colour unless you are thinking of selling them as "Bengal cross" to make more money. Simba has no papers and I shouldn't think your manx has either so if you are actually going to be honest with people there should be no mention of Bengal with regard to the kittens.

Feel free to continue to "do your own thing" and "not be like other people" but please don't rip people off by misdescribing the kittens.

Any plans on getting them neutered soon or are they the basis of your breeding program?

Sorry if you are offended by these comments but you come across as just another backyard breeder with no concern for the welfare of your cats.


Heather

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:35 pm 
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Tigertail wrote:
Very pretty litter of "mutt" kittens as you seem to prefer the term.

Not really sure why you have posted here regarding colour unless you are thinking of selling them as "Bengal cross" to make more money. Simba has no papers and I shouldn't think your manx has either so if you are actually going to be honest with people there should be no mention of Bengal with regard to the kittens.

Feel free to continue to "do your own thing" and "not be like other people" but please don't rip people off by misdescribing the kittens.

Any plans on getting them neutered soon or are they the basis of your breeding program?

Sorry if you are offended by these comments but you come across as just another backyard breeder with no concern for the welfare of your cats.


Heather


And you can kiss my ass! I'm far from a freaking backyard breeder! I despise backyard breeders, Puppy mills, kitten mills, and bird mills. You don't know squat! and learn what spell check is! it's annoying when someone who thinks they are better than I am can't even spell properly, when they attempt to downgrade me! I never once said I was going to Miss-describe them I have said I will let the new owners know the dad is Bengal(even if its just part) and the mom is a Manx, Plus it would be obvious when they come to my house and see the parents sitting here

backyard breeders do not get their animals vaccinated for EVERY vaccine listed for cats. I guarantee YOU don't even get your indoor cats all the vaccines mine have gotten and they are indoor but they do go outside in their cat kennels, and on their harness and cat runs because it is unhealthy to leave animals cooped up in a house all day, they need the vitamins from the Sunlight that are not going to get through a window inside a house, because the window blocks those out!! And Backyard breeders don't take the animals to a vet period! Mine go when ever they need to plus yearly for check ups and to get boosters of all their vaccines when it's time.

So before you judge someone, check yourself first!

Oh and one last thing to mull over, Would a backyard breeder spend over 2 thousand dollars to keep an AKC Registered Beagle alive, when she got out of her dog kennel and accidentally got hit?? Since you seem to have no intelligence at all, I'll answer that for you, NO THEY WOULD NOT and I DID EXACTLY THAT

I will NEVER come back to this forum, I have no time for ignorance, and downgrading and accusing me of crap that you have no clue about. I have better things to do. Perhaps you should go find a hobby and learn to not downgrade people and ASSume stuff when you don't know anything!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:38 pm 
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atvchick95 - no one is going to support purposely cross breeding two unknown heritage cats together on here. Its just the way it is.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:43 pm 
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Not that it will change your mind because you have obviously thought or think this is a good idea but why did you breed them? There was no point or purpose other than to have kittens! There are THOuSaNDs of shelters that have kittens all day every day! This is non sense IMO and yes it is very BYBish!!! The only way you can claim not to be a BYB is to have EVERY kitten in this litter spayed or neutered and then do the same to your cats! It's unfair to them if you don't!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:00 pm 
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atvchick95 wrote:
Tigertail wrote:
Very pretty litter of "mutt" kittens as you seem to prefer the term.

Not really sure why you have posted here regarding colour unless you are thinking of selling them as "Bengal cross" to make more money. Simba has no papers and I shouldn't think your manx has either so if you are actually going to be honest with people there should be no mention of Bengal with regard to the kittens.

Feel free to continue to "do your own thing" and "not be like other people" but please don't rip people off by misdescribing the kittens.

Any plans on getting them neutered soon or are they the basis of your breeding program?

Sorry if you are offended by these comments but you come across as just another backyard breeder with no concern for the welfare of your cats.


Heather


And you can kiss my ass! I'm far from a freaking backyard breeder! I despise backyard breeders, Puppy mills, kitten mills, and bird mills. You don't know squat! and learn what spell check is! it's annoying when someone who thinks they are better than I am can't even spell properly, when they attempt to downgrade me! I never once said I was going to Miss-describe them I have said I will let the new owners know the dad is Bengal(even if its just part) and the mom is a Manx, Plus it would be obvious when they come to my house and see the parents sitting here

backyard breeders do not get their animals vaccinated for EVERY vaccine listed for cats. I guarantee YOU don't even get your indoor cats all the vaccines mine have gotten and they are indoor but they do go outside in their cat kennels, and on their harness and cat runs because it is unhealthy to leave animals cooped up in a house all day, they need the vitamins from the Sunlight that are not going to get through a window inside a house, because the window blocks those out!! And Backyard breeders don't take the animals to a vet period! Mine go when ever they need to plus yearly for check ups and to get boosters of all their vaccines when it's time.

So before you judge someone, check yourself first!

Oh and one last thing to mull over, Would a backyard breeder spend over 2 thousand dollars to keep an AKC Registered Beagle alive, when she got out of her dog kennel and accidentally got hit?? Since you seem to have no intelligence at all, I'll answer that for you, NO THEY WOULD NOT and I DID EXACTLY THAT

I will NEVER come back to this forum, I have no time for ignorance, and downgrading and accusing me of crap that you have no clue about. I have better things to do. Perhaps you should go find a hobby and learn to not downgrade people and ASSume stuff when you don't know anything!


I have to laugh to be honest.... I see no spelling mistakes in Heathers post... But you seem to want to spell 'misdescribe' as miss-describe.... Not sure the spelling is different where you live but 'misdescribe' is in the Oxford English Dictionary..... :rolleyes:

Breeding a cross Bengal to a Manx on purpose is just the thing a BYB would do. They would also tell the new owners their kittens will be part Bengal as it will command more interest and more money.

I hope you will not get every vaccination available for cats because some are very ill advised by a lot of people. The FIP one especially.... Just because there is a vaccine does not mean its important to get it. It is also important that they are not all given at once as it is too much for a young immune system.

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