Like the title says, this is a long post lol. Guess I found myself with too much time on my hands this evening

I'm fairly uninformed on the whole topic and not looking to breed bengals myself (my boy is neutered), just found the concept interesting.
*Climbs up on soap-box*
*Clears throat*

So a responsible breeder is one who breeds to improve the breed right? e.g. to make better colours, markings, head shape, musculature etc possible. But don't people also say a responsible breeder will ensure their cats are neutered before selling them -unless they are specifically contacted by a reputable breeder who wants to add to their breeding program?

If a breeder is breeding for improvement, the offspring would have to be able to reproduce also - otherwise the so called "improvement" only lasts one generation and has no benefit to the breed whatsoever. I understand if the kitten wasn't an improvement they'd want to neuter it and move on. But most of the "reputable" breeders I've seen on the net advertise all litters as neutered. How are these breeders who only provide neutered kittens - as stunning, perfect and healthy as they may be - any different to an irresponsible breeder breeding for profit? Is it just that its rare to get an improvement and what I'm actually seeing is kittens deemed not to be improvements? I've seen absolutely beautiful bengals sold neutered, and has made me wonder why they weren't added to somebody's breeding program - but maybe that's just my inexperienced eye at picking "flaws" in such a beautiful breed

Likewise I've never seen an advertisement for a kitten stating they will not neuter and will only sell to a breeder. I realize the importance in ensuring whole bengals aren't sold to irresponsible people and that if a reputable breeder couldn't be found then there is a need to neuter and sell the cat as a pet. But surely demand for bengals would outweigh that occurrence? If the demand is really that low (which I don't believe it could be), then that in itself would be enough reason to call a breeder irresponsible for breeding a cat in such low demand.
I would like to think that if an improvement was found, the breeder would ensure this kitten was passed on as a breeder to further enhance the breed, and that the kitten’s fate wouldn’t be left to the whims of whosoever came by and decided they wanted it as a pet before a breeder made an offer.

You also then have breeders who claim to be breeding to improve the bengal breed, you look at their cats and they are stunning, but then they do something silly like pair 2 bengals with non-complimenting traits together. I'm picking up a kitten on the weekend that is the result of this - his mum is a medium brown on orange faint marble and the dad has stunningly contrasted dark brown rosettes with orange centers... Its like her idea of improvement is to wash out the contrast of his rosettes and/or smudge them! The little boy I'm getting turned out pretty much exactly that way too, soft rosettes that merge into lines in some places, its not hard to predict. He's still beautiful hard to get a bengal who isn't! But far from what you'd call a show quality. Not that I'm complaining - I'm not looking for a show bengal, I'm just looking for a bengal personality to keep my 12month bengal company. His "less than desirable" coat just means that nobody else seemed to want the beautiful little boy, and has now reached 4 months so is also deemed an "undesirable" age meaning he costs less than a third of what a purebred bengal usually would. Their loss and me and my Oni's gain! But I digress…

So my main point being - from what I hear, someone who is breeding responsibly to improve a breed shouldn't have such a big turnover of neutered cats as these cats can in no way improve the breed. It would be as equally irresponsible to continue breeding cats together that continually produce what is deemed as less than par offspring for the same reason. That being the case, bengals would be divided into 2 groups: those that are part of (or retired from) a breeding program as "improvements/improvers" and those that failed to improve. And the only owners of the former would be registered breeders... So it would become nothing more than a vicious circle of breeders breeding bengals in order to breed more bengals to send to other breeders and breed more bengals again... Which doesn't sound very responsible. Nor does the idea that a cat's sole existence is that it give birth to "improved" offspring only to be sold at a lesser price equivalent to her/his non-improved offspring once their "career" is over... At what point is it ok to breed bengals for the purpose of them being appreciated for what he/she is without being an irresponsible breeder?

Anyway, that’s the end of my little soap-box chatter. Feel free to reply with your insight, thoughts and opinions, or even rants if you feel the need
Oh and any breeders out there, please don't take offense if offense is found as that was not my intent. I am just filling time with rambling thoughts and really don't have much knowledge on the topic, just observations - and they could easily be misguided.

All good points and questions - sometimes breeders are under contract and they cannot sell offspring for breeding from certain cats so they might keep for their own programme to improve on the next generation. Another way if they don't sell for breeding is maybe to sell for show as they can improve the breed that way by providing good cats to be viewed by the public on exhibition.

Don't forget health aswell - people want to establish healthy lines and that might include (and should include) HCM testing - by not selling cats all the time to breeders they can keep better control on the gene pool of their breeding and still keeping back cats for their own programme at the same time. imagine if a breeder sold every cat they deemed breed quality to different breeders and then a problem in the line cropped up - there may well be alot of people affected. I've seen many breeders offering v young kittens as breed quality but I'm not sure how they do this - kittens needs to be assessed over a period of time for health, temperament and how they meet the breed standard. I think alot of breeders take selling for breeding far too lightly.

Those are just a couple of other ways to look at things

_________________
Lollo

I feel that the tag "responsible breeding" as claimed by pedigree breeders is a merely a mechanism by which "the breed" justifies breeding cats.
If we were to look at the bigger picture of the cat population in this country (UK) and the number of unwanted cats put down every year, then deliberately breeding cats is probably verging on the irresponsible whether pedigree or not.
However, if we accept that breeds need to exist and be maintained, then perhaps we can excuse some of that breeding.

I feel the usual justification concerning "improving the breed" trotted out is an almost 100% false one, in that very, very few breeders even get close to truly "improving" the breed. Most, at best, do no harm.
Improving the breed is also highly subjective, to some a "new and improved" attribute may be a step forward, and to others it is a disaster.
In Cavalier King Charles Spaniels the breed has been so "improved" by breeders that dogs die from overly small skulls that crush their brain and spinal cord, or keel over from heart disease, blood disorders or creep around on bad hips. Some stalwarts will still stick to their guns and say that the modern Cavalier has been "improved", whilst others deem it all to be disastrous for the breed. The Cavalier is not alone, dog and cat breeds often suffer from "improvements" that can mean genetic disease and cosmetic manipulation are selected for. The bad effects are then multiplied, causing suffering to the animals involved.

True breeding is about wanting to produce kittens that are better in some way than their parents, it may be size, shape, coat quality, heath whatever.
A big problem in Bengal breeding is the "buy and breed" philosophy, that is followed by some highly popular and sometimes influential breeders.
No real breeding in the true sense of the word involved, just pick and buy stunning cats off the shelf from all over the world, breed them together, sell the kittens often to other breeders, and next year or two years later do the same again, after neutering the last lot. The "vicious cycle" you describe, "breeders breeding bengals in order to breed more bengals to send to other breeders and breed more bengals again" does in fact exist.
No idea of the health of the lines, apart from the odd nod in that direction, no idea if some of the breeding cats even survived their 4th birthday... just on to the next bunch ad infinitum. This is the culture that means that problems in the breed get missed, and the culture that means a cat can found a global dynasty, yet it is the unhealthiest cat in the world...

How long is a cat bred from/how many years are they having litters? How many litters does a female usually have before she is retired?

It doesn't make me sad to see ex-breeders for sale. If someone is a breeder and has multiple females, plus one or more males, and kittens constantly, their home isn't the ideal place for a retired cat, considering it is not truly a pet. After having adopted Inky, I know that the breeder was sad to let her go but wanted her to be a "pampered pet" in a calmer situation.

Thanks Elaine for that response! Everything you said makes sense and really explains some of the comments Inky's old mom said about her. I also feel like a lot of what you said has a lot to do with responsible breeder behavior.

How many years will a breeder breed a girl, assuming she is a good mom and there are no other problems, plus adequate rest time? What is the average and longest time for you as a breeder or what have you heard? I guess I'm wondering what the range and limits are. I know there aren't any absolutes, but I am curious, especially considering how HCM presents itself and how short of a pregnancy cats have.

Its a broad a question to ask how many litters / how long is a girl kept for as every breeder is different, for example I neutered 2 girls after 1 litter each and they both went to live with people who had kittens from me already, one didn't like being a mum or around so many cats, the other had a really traumatic birth and I didn't want to put her through it again. Then I have a girl who had 3 litters, loves everyone and pings back into shape! Although I do know of some breeders who have cats that are a lot older than that and in great shape.

But I don't like my cats outside so I try and make the best home for them all inside with me and the ones I have I bred myself so all were brought up together, although they are like brothers/sisters have spats generally they all get on and the house is theirs! Lots of places for them to get away from each other if needs be.

I always said that I wouldn't rehome any of my girls, but when it came down to it I either keep them all and stop breeding, or let them go to a great pet home like I would do a kitten, and they have all gone to great homes, of course it is heart breaking you watch them come into the world bring them up watch their own kittens come into the world I still think about them everyday and chat to who they have gone to live with and all are really happy, still doesn't really stop the guilt!

From what I've seen of breeders here in Aus, they will neuter the "lower quality" kittens as soon as they are deemed not breeding quality and then sold as pets. "Higher quality" kittens are often kept whole while they receive inquires from other breeders at which a point they will either sell whole to the breeder or someone wants it as a show/pet so they then neuter them. A "responsible breeder" will do everything they can prior to sale to determine if the breeder is qualified (be it by being registered or "responsible" themselves). If they are not happy with the breeder trying to purchase they will decline and move on until they find a suitable buyer.

This next part is probably highly debatable, for me, purchasing from a breeder is about buying the guarantee. You get a healthy kitten raised with every opportunity possible for it to grow into a loving well socialised cat. It's probably not all that different to buying a product (as much as I hate to refer to a living creature as a product in this case I can deny the parallel). I've had 2 cats prior to our current, both shelter rescues. One of them is a passive old bag now lives with my parents and sits around for cuddles and food, lovely personality. The other was the most skittish kitten I've ever come across and despite our best efforts at the time eventually ended up running away, we could never find her again :(.

When my partner and I were looking to buy our kitten we simply wanted to reduce the chance of ending up with the type B cat. It wasn't something we wanted to have to manage and while this may be considered insensitive and selfish, it is both our lives and the kittens hopefully 16+ years that we will be together, we wanted to be happy.

Shoot me down if you will, but I thought I'd throw it out there is it may not be a too uncommon mindset.