As far as keeping breeding cats in outdoor enclosures, if anyone disagrees then feel free to have a stud cat spray all over your house 24/7 or an in call female pee and poop all over your furniture just so that they can be kept indoors as house cats and fight constantly due to territory issues Obviously caging animals in small metal cages is cruel but as long as an animal is well cared for, given plenty of attention and love and is happy then what is the difference in keeping a stud boy in a nice comfortable pen with a large outside enclosure and keeping a horse in a stable with daily access to a field? I never had my cats in outside pens and chose to neuter my stud shortly after he started to spray because he is also our family pet and we wanted to keep him in the house with us but that would have been impossible with him being entire. One of my girls sprayed when in call and had to be confined to our conservatory when calling, which needed cleaning every day to stop the smell of cat pee taking over the entire house! Breeding cats smell, fight and can be grumpy, they don't generally make good pets until they have been neutered and are no longer governed by their hormones. If a breeder is to have more than one breeding cat they will at least need room to separate their cats to avoid potential fighting and the unpleasant behavior that comes with battling for territory so effectively these cats will be confined even if they are kept in one or two rooms of a house rather than outside in a pen.

I have 2 breeding queens. One is nearly 3 and the other is her daughter I kept from the last litter. She is 7 months. Neither spray. Nor do they fight with any of the other household cats. They are not grumpy cats either. As a member of a breeding yahoo group I know many breeders that do not have the issues mentioned though I do know they exist. I just don't think it is the norm!

Many breeders in Europe do not house their studs in outside pens. They use hormonal drugs to control spraying issues and also stud pants or nappies. I know a uk breeder that signed a contract when importing a stud cat that she would never house him in an outside pen.

My cats will never be housed in outside pens because they are pets first and breeding cats second. But I will not produce inferior tonkinese. Mine will be good examples of the breed and they will be very well socialised, happy kittens.

I do think that there are a lot of breeders out there that have several litters throughout the year, 3, 4, ,5, 6 litters at a time. Selling show quality for $1000's dollars. Icannotbelieve they are not breeding for money with cats kept in small pens.

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Lollo

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The little monsters 3

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The little monsters 3

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The little monsters 3

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Lollo

And Brian, if you despise breeders and their methods so much, why have you bought 3 cats from breeders?.

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Lollo

Oh my....this is getting boring, however as you fail to understand I will clarify my original point...

The comparison was :- Breeders, boarding catteries, rescues & shows all use penning at times - are they all lumped under the 'cruel' tag because of this '?'

When I spoke about perspective it was exactly that -

A rescue will pen their cats (although some in this country have large grounds so cats can wander outside or in the buildings of the rescue) because often that is the only option they have - so they can help as many cats as they can - I certainly don't class rescues as a cruel entity; they save many many lives and put a lot of care into the health and well being of the animals in their care - may be this is not the same in the US but it is in the majority of cases here.

A boarding cattery pens their cats as a means for folks to go away knowing their pets are in a safe contained environment - Not because they are cruel.

A responsible breeder may have to pen their cats due to a stud spraying, a queen spraying, territorial issues etc - for the happiness of the cat - Not because they are cruel.

A pen in the above cases will be a large enclosure that a person can walk into, have a run, a heated house, trees, toys, bedding etc

A Show has penned cats for safety and preventing any cross contamination by cats mixing - Not because they are cruel.

A back-yard breeder more then likely pens their cats so they cat fit as many in at once knocking out litter after litter giving the cats no quality of life or love - because they are cruel.

Sweeping statements help no one, neither does trying to twist peoples words or making issues that weren't there in the first place....but putting a little perspective on things is a lot more helpful.

I hope this now clears up the point I was making.....often if you don't understand or agree with a situation; such as a breeders living arrangement its good to actually visit, speak with the breeder and learn why things are the way they are and how they work for them rather then assuming based on very little knowledge.

ETA Thank you Lollo - have just seen your post before i've submitted mine - I am glad that my original point was not missed by someone.

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Lollo

On a final note from me :- I do also want to add I'm not going to be clarifying further as I think i'm out of breath (or type as the case maybe) on this one (feel free to pm me though if needed)

Brian you have a lot of passion about cats and their well being which is great - but in some cases energy can be more productively spent trying to make a difference in a positive light, rather then labouring on with a point that in the grand scheme of things has little consequence.

I guess there are good breeders and bad ones. The last one our cats had contact with was the latter and has thankfully now stopped breeding.

The thing that really baffles me, and I don't know if this is the norm, is that the male had been caged/penned for nearly 5 years and been with 3 different breeders. Isn't there a time restriction on how long studs/queens are kept for breeding before they are retired? As I said on another thread, his cage wasn't much bigger than a large rabbit hutch. I am wondering whether the second breeder checked out the place she sent him to & if not, why not? We are led to believe from a lot of breeders websites that potential owners are checked for suitability. Although, breeder number 3 was quite happy to let my partner take these pretty damaged cats, knowing virtually nothing about him.

It's still only day 4 with the cats so we have a long way to go but the male's behaviour is very disturbing to watch. Not helped by the fact that he probably feels physically rubbish as well, having recently been neutured and now suffering an eye infection and ear mites. The 2 year old female is adapting really well though thankfully.