Hi, I am new to the forum. I am currently looking at buying two bengal kittens. I have had two ex breeding bengals in the past. Looking at the pedigree of the potential new kittens I see that the sire is also the great grand sire. Is this too close in breeding? I understand a bit about line breeding to retain certain characteristics but wonder at what level it becomes risky? The breeders who have the kittens are first time breeders themselves. I don't want to risk taking on a couple of kittens that then develop problems later in life as a result of being too closely inbred. I have read about inbreeding coefficients but am not much good at maths and can't download the tenset software onto my mac. Any ideas or advice would be welcome.

Thanks

Annie

I dont think I could work out the coefficient even with the formulas to work out the percentage - but im sure someone here has breeders assistant that maybe able to enter the names in for you maybe to work it out.
Personally I wouldnt do that mating - only because I dont think there is any need with the diverse lines that are out there. and I would only expect it to be done by an experienced breeder who knew the lines inside and out.
Being a new breeder myself I cant really add much more then that but hopefully someone else can.

Thanks Lacemoat, the sire has already got quite a bit of linebreeding in the 3 generations above him so he adds that to the whatever the dam already has inherited as his great great granddaughter. My worry is that one of my previous cats was a product of two half siblings and this was in 2000 so a much smaller genepool too. He had been sold to a breeder as a stud but proved to be infertile which is how I came to get him as a pet. He was fine until he was 4 and then started to develop abdominal tumours which were benign at first and then got nasty. He only died a few weeks ago and it was so heartbreaking because he had been a fabulous character and I loved him to bits. It may or may not have been related to his genealogy though I suppose but my other cat who had a more diverse family tree has no real issues. I went to see the kittens yesterday and fell in love with them but then when I started looking at the pedigree I felt a bit concerned. Maybe it's nothing to worry about (I hope) I just don't want to go through all the heart ache again if I can avoid it. Hopefully the lovely kittens will remain healthy and happy as adults though.

I would say where there is a lot of linebreeding, you do increase the risk of genetic problems developing. If you want my honest advice, as you already had heartache with one cat, maybe go to a more experienced breeder, and make sure they are knowlegeable about bloodlines, HCM, etc...

Thanks Zoekie, I have already decided not to take those kittens. I am only a simple punter, not really interested in showing cats so the looks are not important. I just love the Bengal personality, BUT the most important thing to me is the health of the cat. I do not want a cat that seems ok for a few years but then starts getting tumours, or to come home to find a cat in agony with paralysed back legs that has to be euthanised or one who keels over with a heart attack or dies from severe anaemia, all things that people in these forums seem to have experienced. I only learned about inbreeding coefficients as a result of noticing on the kitten pedigree that there seemed to be a lot of line breeding and then investigating further. I had no idea how important it is and how ignorant many breeders seem to be. I don't mean ignorant in a rude way, just lacking knowledge. I think some people get into breeding because they like the look of the cats. Perhaps they take advice from someone who has lots of practical experience but who might not understand the genetics, which is complicated after all, and end up causing or perpetuating problems in the breeding population by mistake. The road to hell being paved with good intention and all that. Purely from a buyers perspective, I would like much better information to be available so people could make an informed decision and calculate risk. The GCCF make a very limp suggestion that IC's should be put on the pedigree form-actually a good idea but probably needs enforcement. Perhaps government legislation is needed to make it more difficult to become a breeder. Amateurs interested in breeding should perhaps stick to flowers rather than messing with the lives of innocent creatures (and their slaves).I would like to see proper training courses in genetics as well as practical issues of hygiene, care of the animals etc etc and a rigorous examination process before a breeder can register followed by a continuous education process with proof of keeping up to date mandatory to remain registered. I don't know if anything like that exists anywhere but from the individuals I've met so far it doesn't seem to. What seems certain is that breeders need to communicate and cooperate to try and solve the problems. The more people bury their heads in the sand and refuse to take responsibility the more suffering will continue. I will definitely be looking for responsible breeders who care about the development of the breed, understand the challenges and have proof they are dealing with them before I invest my heart and cash in a cat in future. It seems to be buyer beware in the pedigree cat world at the moment. I realise it's not just Bengals that have problems of this kind. What do other buyers think I wonder?

Annie