Hi Druisilla and Nanette.

You sure have given some interesting info. It is something to take into account when we get our cats, as to exactly what to feed them. As I want to make sure they are getting a healthy and balanced diet and not feeding them loads of toxins.

I've heard of a few people that feed their bengals pinkie mice, I'm sure that that may be good for them.

Sometimes older cats won't eat raw. I give it to my kittens, and they seem to take to it very well- it's cute to hear them growling like big kids with their mouths full.

Hi Athena et al,

Mice on Ice is a good source for mice ....they offer a variety of sizes/ages
<a href='http://www.miceonice.com/homepage.html' target='_blank'>http://www.miceonice.com/homepage.html</a>

Rabbit and a few other fresh diet prey ...also offers different size/age prey
<a href='http://www.hare-today.com/' target='_blank'>http://www.hare-today.com/</a>

Regards,
shannon

To get your older cats to eat raw, give them a feeding of their favorite canned food with just a little bit of raw in it. Then the next day add just a little bit more raw & a little less canned. Keep doing this until they are completely on raw. If they don't eat one day when you up the raw a bit, cut back to previous raw/canned ratio that they would eat previously, feed that for a few days and then start increasing the raw again. Also some cats prefer ground meat, while others prefer chunk, while others will eat it any which way. Also some cats prefer chicken, others turkey, others beef, etc. or again others don't care which. Usually kittens are the ones that don't care and will eat raw any which way, and older ones are the pickier ones that take a little time to find exactly what they like.

Dru,

I have a couple of replies. One, the costs of high end commercial food isn't as expensive as feeding raw consistantly. Maybe some people don't have the money to feed raw (our breeders food bill went up $300 a month OVER what they were spending before when they went to raw--they also serve kibble). Out here in CA people are hurting more and more as the government, gasoline, etc. takes more of our paycheck each week.

Even in the wild, animals need vegie matter (usually grass and herbs) to help their digestion. No animal eats raw meat alone with nothing else in the diet. That's not their natural diet. They also eat the bones, beaks, and organ meats, etc. in the wild. Ground up bones (bone meal) is very important as a calicum source.


In the wild and outdoors, cats only live for about 7 years (estimated by animal experts) so it is a possibility that we don't have data enough to know whether an all raw meat diet is healthy for them or not. I've heard and read (online)some strong rebuttals by researchers to the contrary of that position (only raw food) recently so if they don't know, neither do we.

Organ meat is known to carry most of the poisons that animals take into their bodies or what they may have acquired due to disease. So that's not a good choice, but I see organ meats for sale at the raw meats sites. Anything, chemical or otherwise, that we put into our bodies, our organs process so feeding organ meats are questionable. They used to think that liver and heart meat were good for us, but I found out when the women of my family went through a 20 yr. DES trial-- through UCLA and Dr. Leo Lagasse, the highest regarded national researcher of DES and other chemicals given to expectant mothers from 1945 through 1964, that organ meats aren't safe for anyone. Even organically raised animals have issues with their organs because of their natural purpose.

That and many other reasons has made me hesitate to feed my cats an all-raw diet. Cats do need a good source of fiber that they might not be able to get with only lean raw meat...even when enhanced with taurine and vitamins. My vet has advised against all raw for those and other reasons. I am not a opponent of the raw food diet. I just have a problem with the all-or-nothing militants who claim that its "my way or the highway" without having years of research to back their ideas up. Even the researchers and Vets are in a turmoil as to what is right to feed a companion animal. So many different opposing opinions out there.

As an aside, but still on topic, before we changed over to the high end commerical food, we were talking about this on Bengals-L. A website was posted and suggested to breeders and bengal owners to read before changing to another brand of food. I recommend it to all of you. The URL is:

<a href='http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?%20d=home-tab' target='_blank'>http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?%20d=home-tab</a> If that is too long for you, just go to <a href='http://www.naturapet.com' target='_blank'>http://www.naturapet.com</a> and look for the food comparison table. It may take a little time to find, but it's worth it. I can't remember if they have a search engine available on the site. I haven't been on it for awhile. The food comparision pages contain the ingredients for each of the commercial foods on the market and I used this to find the foods I eventually came to use.
I rejected any food with corn or corn products because of the digestion and allergy potential.

Still, I do have a cat who isn't in top shape like he should be so I will try feeding some raw. It is interesting to me that two of my cats lived to a ripe old age of 16 on lower end commercial food. We have a friend whose cat died at about 20 years of age and was solely fed on commercial food. I didn't even know about high end commercial food until we got our Bengals and read up on it. Our cats, when I was young, were outside on the ranch (in the mountains) and eating God-knows-whatever natural as well as low end food we provided, but only two of them in 30 years lived until a ripe old age, but they were very healthy until they each fell victim to other predatory animals...a good reason to keep cats indoors.

I think that deciding on what food to feed your cats and dogs depends on many things and its up to us to do our own research, read the articles, talk to our Vets and make up our own minds.

Nan

One thing I was told when I was first looking into raw about a year ago that has stuck with me is that a well balanced raw diet is the absolute best for your cat BUT an imbalanced raw diet is no better than and possibly worse than cheap kibble. If you are going to feed solely raw you have to make sure you are feeding a balanced diet. You do this by research and more research and also switching what type of meats & other ingredients you feed. Also make sure you have a good ratio of bone or bone meal mixed in with the meat and some organ meat. Remember a cat's digestive system is much different than a humans and they are built to deal with these type of meats, unlike an herbavoirs. Their digestive track is much more acidic and much shorter. As to the need of ruffage (i.e. veggies) that is actually up for debate still. Some say you need it because it represents stomach contents, others say you don't because many carnivores will avoid the stomach and its contents if possible in the wild (along with other arguments for both sides). Others say you also need to add fiber to the diet, such as psyllium husks, in order to represent the undigestable parts of the animals such as hair and feathers.

I see no problem with feeding a high quality canned or kibble in addition to raw to make sure all nutritional needs are met. Even just a high quality kibble (especially those that use all human grade foods) is infinitly better than the cheap grocery store stuff. Also, if someone is not comfortable with everything going into the raw diet, just feeding kibble and then adding a small meal of beef or chicken chunks helps. The chunks allow the cats to chew on them (as long as they are big enough) and helps clean the teeth. They also get the added nutrients in the raw meat.

One thing to make sure of though is that if you feed raw meat DO NOT feed dry kibble at the same meal. Kibble is pushed through the digestive system at a MUCH slower rate. If you feed dry & raw at the same time, the raw could be slowed down (this is the current theory out there) and this could possibly lead to problems with e coli because raw is suppose to go through at the much faster rate. So if you do feed raw I suggest feeding it at a different meal than the kibble.

As nan said, when it comes to feline nutrition, there is no "one and only" way that is the right way. To much has not been studied on feline nutrition. In fact your typical vet only spends a couple weeks on nutrition in school and do little to no study after that. Most accept kickbacks from places like Hills (science diet) and just sell that thinking it is a quality food. Most pet owners, if they are researching raw, will soon meet and exceed what their vet knows about nutrition. My old vet new nothing about nutrition. I suspected that one of my cats was sensitive to grains because she had chronic diarrhea. When I told my vet that she told me that she doubted it because grain, even corn, was perfectly fine in feline food and went ahead and prescribed her a hills diet and more drugs. The hills made it worse of course. This was when I first researched raw. I ended up pulling her off of the hills and the drugs (they were just trying different drugs because nothing was showing up on blood work or fecal) and I put her on California Natural (no corn or many other fillers) and some raw meat and the diarrhea was gone in 48 hours! My new vet has researched diets much more and HATES any dry food. Would much rather see cats on raw and if not raw, at least a high quality canned. If a person does goe with raw though, he does suggest buying a commercial raw - such as the one I posted earlier so that proper nutrition is being met.

Jessie

Greetings Nan, List


Nan wrote:
I have a couple of replies. One, the costs of high end commercial food isn't as expensive as feeding raw consistantly. Maybe some people don't have the money to feed raw (our breeders food bill went up $300 a month OVER what they were spending before when they went to raw--they also serve kibble). Out here in CA people are hurting more and more as the government, gasoline, etc. takes more of our paycheck each week.

dru/shannon replies:
Anyone can feed one cat for the price of high end commercial. i am not working and my Hubby is in school full time. If we are managing anyone can. There is a carnivore food supply list on Yahoo (broken into areas), they buy in bulk from restraunt suppliers, you learn to shop for sale meat and parts that are not commonly sold but are great for your cat (rmb's etc.), and become very creative. It is my opinion that if you can afford a cat, vet bills, etc. you should be able to afford to feed them a proper diet. Keeping the amount of cats you own to what you can afford is an important part of being a responsible owner.
i am aware of economic struggles and have decided not to take in more animals and to hold off on breeding for these very reasons. i simply do not have the money to provide more cats with what i believe to be the best for them.


Nan wrote:
Even in the wild, animals need vegie matter (usually grass and herbs) to help their digestion. No animal eats raw meat alone with nothing else in the diet. That's not their natural diet. They also eat the bones, beaks, and organ meats, etc. in the wild. Ground up bones (bone meal) is very important as a calicum source.

dru/shannon replies:
You are correct that _some_ animals require vegetables. Cats and dogs are carnivores (obligate) and any grass/herbs taken are not for nutrition. i do provide "cat grass" and
Catnip for him but, as i said, this is not for nutrition reasons.
Cats avoid stomach contents and when they do not it is generally not enough content to make much of a difference in nutrients. Dogs and wolves shake out the stomach contents before consuming or avoid the contents entirely.
*laugh* my boy also gets bones, beaks, and organ meat as it is available, whether or not he eats it or leaves the "spare parts" is another story hehe. i do not grind, he gets either whole prey or prey model (large peices including bones). The benefit of him ripping, tearing flesh/muscle and chewing thru the bones is something that i find to be very important. His shoulders, jaws etc. should have this exercise and i have seen a remarkable difference in his muscle tone and strength. There is also nothing as satisfying for me to see the joy he now has during meal-time and after working (tearing flesh and crunching thru bone) for his meal!
i do not provide him with bone meal as he gets bone to meat ratio that is sufficient for his calcium needs. i am very careful about what he is fed, what the ratio's are, and am aware of what he needs according to the information available.

Nan wrote:
In the wild and outdoors, cats only live for about 7 years (estimated by animal experts) so it is a possibility that we don't have data enough to know whether an all raw meat diet is healthy for them or not. I've heard and read (online)some strong rebuttals by researchers to the contrary of that position (only raw food) recently so if they don't know, neither do we.

dru/shannon replies:
Just wondering if you can cite resources for this info. i am aware that life span is shorter in wild cats but have never heard this argument based only on diet. It would be unfair to contribute early death only to diet without considering disease, the food chain (these animals in particular being prey and hunted), dealing with the elements, and other vast reasons for death. If you have articles etc, i would love to read them. As for raw food being "healthy" for an obligate carnivore ...i believe that by simply classifying them as such we have determined that meat is not only healthy but necessary for their survival.
As with any subject i do not rely on any "researchers" opinion. i have no idea who they are and what studies they have done, without the studies etc. in front of me i do not have a rebuttal. i have done sufficient studies of my own and decide which opinion i value based on who has done these studies and whether or not the opinion coincides with my own research. i am satisfied with my decision and do not judge others on what they do with their animals. All i offer is encouragement to research on your own and make decisions you can live with. It is not common for me to trust someone and their opinion simply because they claim to be an expert *shrug* be that a vet or any other person. As i have seen mentioned in another post, fact is vets only have a few hours dedicated to nutrition and are often wrong about these subjects.

Nan wrote:
Organ meat is known to carry most of the poisons that animals take into their bodies or what they may have acquired due to disease. So that's not a good choice, but I see organ meats for sale at the raw meats sites. Anything, chemical or otherwise, that we put into our bodies, our organs process so feeding organ meats are questionable. They used to think that liver and heart meat were good for us, but I found out when the women of my family went through a 20 yr. DES trial-- through UCLA and Dr. Leo Lagasse, the highest regarded national researcher of DES and other chemicals given to expectant mothers from 1945 through 1964, that organ meats aren't safe for anyone. Even organically raised animals have issues with their organs because of their natural purpose.

dru/shannon replies:
i understand this argument and your strong personal feelings due to your own experience.
All i can say is that the world as a whole is constantly bombarded by chemicals and risks. All i can do is minimize these risks as best i can. Thru my own research i have found organs to be necessary to my cats health and i am satisfied with my decision.
i do this with my children, with my animals, and with myself. Research the pros and cons and make the best decisions possible for our wellbeing.

Nan wrote:
That and many other reasons has made me hesitate to feed my cats an all-raw diet. Cats do need a good source of fiber that they might not be able to get with only lean raw meat...even when enhanced with taurine and vitamins. My vet has advised against all raw for those and other reasons. I am not a opponent of the raw food diet. I just have a problem with the all-or-nothing militants who claim that its "my way or the highway" without having years of research to back their ideas up. Even the researchers and Vets are in a turmoil as to what is right to feed a companion animal. So many different opposing opinions out there.

dru/shannon replies:
This is a personal decision that i respect. i only offer my experience and what i have learned. i advocate species appropriate diet but am far from militant in _any_ area of my life and this includes strong opinion/belief. As i am ever changing, growing, and expanding my knowledge nothing is ever set in stone and it is not prudent to have this attitude as it closes one off to new knowledge.

Nan wrote:
As an aside, but still on topic, before we changed over to the high end commerical food, we were talking about this on Bengals-L. A website was posted and suggested to breeders and bengal owners to read before changing to another brand of food. I recommend it to all of you. >snip<

dru/shannon replies:
Thanks Nan, i am on Bengals-L and have been for quite some time. i do read any links sent on feline nutrition.

Regards,
dru/shannon

Hi Nan
How are you doing with your boy who was overgrooming, it seems ages ago since we last chatted regarding this? Just wondered what you managed to get to work, did you change to raw?
A lot of breeders in the UK are now feeding raw, day old chicks seem the favourite:)
Reagrds
Dawn

_________________
<img src='http://www.tuhinabengals.com/images/logos/bengalcatlogo.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /><a href='http://www.tuhinabengals.com' target='_blank'>Tuhina Bengal Cats</a><br><span style='color:blue'>Members of:- TICA/TIBCS/TIBBA/BCCGB/NBA/CATTICA<br>International Committee Member of TIBCS<br>President of CatTica (TICA UK)<br>Secretary of NBA<br>Web Design - www.tuhinawebservices.com</span>