Please can anyone tell me if there is a list of UK breeders that test for HCM as I am losing the will to live trawling through websites that don't mention it so I assume they don't!

...or any personal recommendations please?


Heather

Oh how i know this feeling!!! Exactly what i was going through recently!

I used the Fabcats HCM negative register as it shows breeder prefixes of the cats that have been registered with HCM screening and their results, then going on to the website of those breeders to ensure they still carry out screening.

Here's the link:

http://www.fabcats.org/hcm/negative_register.html

Also, Lacemoat recently posted in the healthcare section about a website that many breeders are working on that will raise awareness about HCM screening and will have a list of breeders who HCM screen. It's quite new at the moment but i really think its a fantastic idea:

http://www.bengalbreedersukunited.co.uk ... -list.html

I can think of Blissnmore Bengals, Pantherajedi, Suntouched, Silverstorm, Supernova and Queenanne off the top of my head but i expect you'll find more via the fab cats list :)

Hope that helps!!

That is the million dollar question I'm afraid, and of those that have screened do they screen all their cats and are they all valid screenings.

Not everyone that screens puts it on their website or the FAB list for that matter.

My question would be what area are you looking in? Sussex I take it from your profile location, in that case I would recommend Tracy Baker at Patherajedi as a screening breeder

Thank you both.

After looking at the FAB list I was quite shocked actually!

Why would Silverstorm and Glitterglam/Silverglam only screen their males?

....and I can't find any listings for Pantherajedi on there either.

Suntouched and Queenanne only list scans in 2011 or earlier.

Blissnmore were done in 2012 so are current.

Looking at the various websites of the above breeders who have kittens for sale they mostly seem to have only one parent screened, some have neither!

I have also noticed some others have the BBUKU banner proudly displayed on their home page but then no mention of whether their cats are screened. As they are not on the FAB list I assume they are not screening but give the impression that they are by displaying the banner prominently.

Heather

Not everyone sends their paperwork to FAB.

Basically what happens is when you have a screening you get a 3 piece document, one copy you keep, one copy you give to your vets and the other copy you 'can' send to FAB and pay for it to appear on the register. Not all breeders do this though - some forget, and some its out of personal choice.

Recently FAB changed over to another name, in doing so they have messed up the HCM negative register - the one included in this thread is the old one - a lot of breeders have refused to send in their paperwork until the current list is corrected.

Anyone displaying our BBUKU banner should either be a MEMBER (you can see the list of members on the front page of our website) ...or a pet owner that is supporting. If you see someone who is not on our member list (its only small!) displaying our banner can you pm me the detail please so I can check they are allowed to have it on their website.

Another reason why not all breeders have their screening details on their website against their cats is because they feel this information is for their kitten owners - your best bet is to enquire and ask the question out right

Hi folks.
I think you might have been looking at the old list.
FABcats has now become International Cat Care (ICat Care), and the list was recently updated and is mostly correct now. You will see I have screened several cats in the past 12 months and have another 4 reports to send in.

Here is the link to the new list:

http://www.icatcare.org/breeders/regist ... ective=All

_________________
Best Wishes,
Karen <UK>
http://www.suntouchedbengals.com
http://www.bengalbreedersunited.co.uk

You are exactly like me. If looking for a kitten my main starting point is an up to date website. If breeders screen but dont state it they are losing my initial interest. If it was me i would put the info on but others? Unfortunatly thats upto them

Many breeders, myself included, prefer to share our results with our customers and not post them publically. There are a few reasons and my main one is the Equivocal diagnosis. A cat can be screened EQ for a multitude of reasons yet it is always taken that it means the cat has, or will develop, HCM. We have had 2 cats screen EQ and were neutered due to the reasons for the diagnosis. We have another who was EQ by being 0.06mm over the new (breeding cat only) cut off point. The cardiologist had no worries about her at all and, when I got upset, said "it's only EQ". She couldn't understand why I was stressing about it - the cat was fine but it was over on one measurement which meant she could say the cat was normal under the new measurement cut offs. The parents of the cat in question were screened clear recently at 6.5 years and 5 years - even more reason for the cardiologist to question our worry.

Also, we do not sell breeding cats at the level in which most do - there are currently 2 cats of our breeding in other programmes. So the results are only relevant to those looking for a kitten.

The difficulty with posting publically is that EQ results are never taken in context. Fellow breeders use the results to bad mouth lines - and kitten owners, in the main, don't bother to read up fully or enquire about results. The few who want kittens from screened parents just want a kitten from 2 parents that were clear in the last 12 months - regardless of age, status of relations etc I've spoken to many kitten owners who feel it safer to buy from 2 cats that have been screened clear at (almost useless) ages of 8-18months than buy from lines that have an EQ ancestor listed on the HCM list. Madness!

Some very healthy and top producing cats have been screened EQ and later screened clear. Their results are not made public and people praise the lines and their successes. On the flip side, this condition (and other heart conditions) can happen at any age. We sold 2 kittens to a couple who lost a Bengal to HCM. The parents of our kittens were both clear. Fast forward a year and we have had a diagnosis of MVD with the father of that litter, now retired because of it. One of their kittens now has a grade 3 heart murmur at 11 months old. The father had passed his screenings until 5 years of age. So please do be aware that screening isn't perfect and certainly offers no guarantee, though it is the only thing we have now. We did everything right, as did they - and still we were both struck with this horrible news.

In searching for a kitten I would e-mail every breeder I was interested in, regardless of their website contents. If non screening breeders get more and more enquiries for kittens from screened parents they might wake up and start screening, if only for sales. If the breeder says they do screen then request paperwork. It's very little effort to send out e-mails and it could do the world of good - not only in getting you a kitten from a responsible breeder but in letting the non screening breeders know there is a demand.

It will take effort from everyone to get on top of the heart issues in this breed and, being honest, I'm at a point where I wonder if we ever can. I fear it will have to become a widespread scandal before people take an interest. The cat magazines won't publish information in fear of losing advertisers, the registries won't demand screening for fear of losing registrations, the clubs won't mention health because hardly anyone on the committees screens their cats, International Cat Care (the new FAB) don't even list it as a known condition.

It is an absolute mess, and pretty hearts decorating websites goes no way to address or eliminate it.

Steven

DITTO Claire!
Great statement Steven (Hubblebub), and so very true.

_________________
Best Wishes,
Karen <UK>
http://www.suntouchedbengals.com
http://www.bengalbreedersunited.co.uk

OMG! Elaine said that 'Mrs Brown word'!!

In a way I wish EQ wasn't included at all so it all could be 'black and white', 'yes or no' (re breeding). The fact is that EQ could mean *something*, or it could actually mean *normal* and that nothing is wrong. That is what I don't like. That grey area is so confusing for those who have had it diagnosed and I can understand the frustration.

_________________
Best Wishes,
Karen <UK>
http://www.suntouchedbengals.com
http://www.bengalbreedersunited.co.uk

Apologies for posting the old list in the initial reply - thank you for updating it! I also didn't mean to give the impression that unless breeders post their results on there they don't screen or that they definitely all screen if on there, it was just a good place to start when wading through so many websites!

Blissnmore is where i bought my first bengal, Tracey scans regularly and is a lovely lady. She does have a litter that is ready to go in September ( i am unsure if any are still available) but i think she is planning for this to be her last litter sadly :(

There are so many variants that make this issue so difficult for me and i think there is such a mixture of information.

Firstly being at what age do you deem a cat "safe" (or safe enough i guess). For example, some people might be quick to write a breeder off as they haven't yet scanned their new one year old stud but say he is from scanned lines that so far are free of HCM (as best as they can track obviously) so to the best of their knowledge as yet he is safe and plan to screen when he is a little older.

Yet at the same time if they had screened him, you often read that HCM screening at such a young age is "technically meaningless" so does it even make a difference? Wouldn't it be more important that his lines have clear results given the cats are at a more telling age? Is it really fair to discount a breeder for not paying hundreds of pounds to carry out a scan that at the cats current age, wouldn't necessarily provide any dependable results?

Another is how close is too close? Pretty much every line you follow back now has had some history of HCM. If you can trace back the full pedigree of a cat you are more than likely going to find some history there. But when do you decide it's too close? If a great aunt of the cat you are going to get had HCM does that mean that even though the cats parent's are clear at this stage that it could later develop and you should therefore not buy the cat? what about the great great grandad? :S

And then there is the woefully confusing status of "EQ" which is as grey as things can get.

Then further compounding the issue again is that some breeders don't even publish their results so perhaps this kitten that you have just chosen because his parents have been scanned and his lines are clear till a long way back actually has a line full of HCM but the knowledge isn't available publicly. Gah...nightmare....

I can fully understand what Hubblebub meant about deciding to keep their results for kitten owners only since they do not often breed out and therefore their lines may not have an effect on others apart from the lines they control and can share with their clients. But when it's in regards to a breeder who does outcross frequently / sells a number of breeding cats, i really think the results should be public. Since this is difficult to distinguish between though (how much outbreeding means results should be public), i think it would be much more helpful to have all results public.

I recently spoke to a breeder who said the last 3 cats she had brought in from different lines ended up having HCM after a few years of screening. So not only has she spent hundreds on the scans and looking after these cats, the thousands of pounds she spent on the breeding cats has also essentially been "wasted". Perhaps if she had had access to the screening results of these cats, this whole issue could have been avoided.

It really is quite a mess and like Hubblebub said, it's hard to see any way for it to get better and who / what information to trust! I really do commend the breeders that take the time and money regularly scanning their cats and trying their best to promote this issue as without you all, there wouldn't really be any hope :(