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 Post subject: Spraying...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:33 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:11 pm
Posts: 1196
Dear all

In the hope I’m missing something obvious, thought I’d run this by you all!

Some of you will know some of Jagger and Hendrix’s history and Jagger had issues with the local foxes a couple of summers ago. He was peeing outside his litter tray. In January 2017 I replaced gates, fence panels and even added a couple and we very rarely see a fox in our garden now. The vixens can no longer bring their cubs in and the cycle of our garden being their playground appears to be broken - happy days!

So all should be well in the world of Jagger! But no...

This January we started to have the odd occurrence of him spraying indoors. He has never, and I mean NEVER sprayed indoors before. It seemed to be aimed at the dehumidifier which I’d been running. So I was careful to use it only when he wasn’t around. Since then there have been a few other incidents, the shutters in the main living room, blinds in our snug, and the other night he sprayed the dining room cabinet. I think that was due to a thunder storm that freaked him out.

In February we set up motion detector cameras outdoors to see if we could get to the bottom of his agitation. We did have a cat coming round, that actually came in one of windows and peed all over our conservatory - fortunately when Jagger was out and we had a major clean up and he seemed unconcerned when he came home. This was a few months ago now, and I haven’t seen the cat for a few weeks now.

Last night there was another random spray against the shutters. Checked the camera and nothing at all outside all night. The most action I get lately is a spider crawling over the lense!

Jagger is a pretty anxious boy, but I’m at a loss and can’t figure out what is bothering him! Nothing at home is different, routines are the same. They are both pests from 5am every morning wanting to go out etc as it’s summer, but I don’t think he would do this to annoy me, something is upsetting him but I’m clearly missing what it is!!

Any ideas???

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Clare
Hendrix and Jagger, Brown Marble Boys (born 18 August 2013)
Hampshire, UK


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 Post subject: Re: Spraying...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:38 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 2:21 pm
Posts: 8880
Clare, welcome back! We've missed you and hate that you have to post about this. My Raiden sprays a well. He sprays in his enclosure, the shrubs on our walk, but he will still spray in the house. It's just what male cats (and sometimes female cats) do. I don't know how to stop it. I just found that Raiden peed on Long Legs' bed again, after I'd just washed it and put it away for a week. I cleaned the carpet where he sprayed up against the wall in our sitting room. I don't always catch him, so I walk around with a black light in the dark and find the spots. The sad thing is, you can't stop the spraying once it starts. Feliway doesn't help, period. You can only clean the areas with an enzymatic cleaner -- or use cat diapers on the cat. Raiden may go days without spraying in the house, but I swear he has sprayed in every room at some point.

You have been very fortunate that Jagger went so many years without spraying. And I am happy that you have solved the fox issue! Yes, outdoor cats can cause problems for indoor cats, but you let Jagger and Hendrix outside -- so they are "traveling" where there are other cats. The key is ... how do you keep Hendrix from following suit? My DSH is in the house a lot and he has never sprayed in the house, period.

Think about you and Jon often and hope Jon is doing okay.


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 Post subject: Re: Spraying...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:22 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat
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Location: Portland Oregon, USA
Tabitha,

I gotta give it to you... you are handling this really well, and one of the more diligent cat owners that I've come across. Not many people would go to the lengths you've gone through to get a handle on this. More typically, at the first sign of trouble, people seem to throw a rage against the cat.

Anyhow... I feel like peeing on windows, blinds, and shutters is a pretty clear signal, right? He's territorially insecure, and worried that something from the outside, that he doesn't consider welcome, will intrude on his domain. Perhaps real or imagined. Dining room cabinet seems like a different deal though, but it's difficult to tell. You say that Jagger suffers from a lot of anxiety?

Just brainstorming here, but it seems like options might be:

Maybe the tact should be to keep him away from the "hot zones", both to spare your house and to help him control his anxiety. So if it's a particular area of the house, and under particular circumstances (at night? when you are away?) maybe you could just try to keep him away from those area, or keep him from seeing what's out there. Maybe some blackout, or maybe you just keep him away from there if you can.

In a similar vein, maybe you just try harder to encourage him to want to stay in another part of the house where he feels safer. Maybe with some addition "Jager" catification?

As a last resort, I think typically when Jackson Galaxy gets a case where a cat is behaving kind of irrationally, he seems to prescribe "mood stabilizing meds". *shrug* I dunno, seems kinda drastic to me, but I could see myself going down that road if I got desperate enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Spraying...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:04 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:11 pm
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Hi Sherry,

Thankfully, Hendrix has a beautiful relationship with the litter box, he's only just started going outside again as its summer - he will still happily use it overnight, sometimes just for the hell of it!

Jagger has had a strained relationship for a good couple of years although was very willing to use it when it snowed here! So it's not like he doesn't use it at all, just prefers to go outside. The spraying is incredibly random and I'm amazed it has just seemed to start when he had never done it indoors previously...

I've always seen Jagger spraying outside loads but Hendrix hardly at all. I even know the bushes he uses as sign posts to other cats to stay away! So I hope Hendrix doesn't follow suit - that had not occurred to me!

Jon is doing okay, thanks for asking! Well, he's obviously not well but we are close to the operation happening now :eek:

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Clare
Hendrix and Jagger, Brown Marble Boys (born 18 August 2013)
Hampshire, UK


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 Post subject: Re: Spraying...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:25 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:11 pm
Posts: 1196
Hi Bryan

I'm trying to deal with it well - I keep reminding myself it won't be out of spite, he's just acting on instinct and being a cat!

One of the times he sprayed the blinds in the snug, he actually did it in front of us, we were both sat on the sofa, he was on the back and directly sprayed the blinds (which were closed) - we were pretty shocked! He had been running around howling beforehand and I was trying not to react and get up. Quite often I get up and walk over to his litter box and he will often then get in it and use it and calm down. He is a complex thing as that should be entirely different to spraying.

There are definite hot zones as you say. But I shut the door to one of them one morning as he'd been sick all over the sofa and I was trying to clean it. Somehow he managed to avoid every blanket that was on there! It was quite early at the weekend and Jon was still in bed but Jagger came back in for his breakfast, saw a door closed to him and howled the house down. So I imagine that could upset him even more.

The dining room cabinet is opposite the windows and we hadn't shut the blinds in there - we never have. But I still think that might be the storm we had as there was so much lightening.

It does tend to be a night time thing, shutters and blinds other than the dining room are always closed so he can't see out. Whilst Hendrix can open the shutters, Jagger has never sussed that out and I could see from the last incident, that they were shut when he sprayed.

The spare room seems to be the best place for him to sleep. There is little action outside and it is very quiet and away from it all, but he doesn't always go in there - and that room is Jagger catified with radiator and snuggle beds etc. He tends to move around the house depending on his mood. I will however see if I can think how to encourage him to settle in there more.

Zylkene definitely helps him - and that's not chemical its just a milk protein as I try to have him on that a good week before his annual vet visit. They are chalk and cheese - Jagger will literally tremble with fear at the vet and try to hide in my coat, Hendrix is stroppy and vocal.

I guess I need to get him back on the Zylkene in the short term but would prefer not to - I feel I'm letting him down by not being able to fix this for him :sad: I had him on this for a couple of months, I've finished the course and he's sprayed again, so I will order some more...

He is a proper napoleon cat - at the extreme end - I do wonder if you are correct and some of this is imaginary threats to his kingdom!

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Clare
Hendrix and Jagger, Brown Marble Boys (born 18 August 2013)
Hampshire, UK


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 Post subject: Re: Spraying...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:26 pm
Posts: 732
Hey Clare,

Just a thought but is Hendrix up to his old tricks again? I Honestly think that if they have peed or sprayed inside before then there is always a good chance of it happening again. Oscar peed in my bedroom during the snow and also in my study a week ago. Absolutely no reason for last week and it is so difficult to understand it. I put a tent up at the weekend for the kids. Oscar sniffed all around it and I just knew he was going to spray to make the alien object his! I did what i have done before with tents and I got his main bed and rubbed it all over the tent.......literally everywhere so his hair and scent was on it. Could you do this in your home in the areas he has sprayed? Rubbing his bed over the tent made him very happy as he saw it as his property and didn't need to mark it!

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 Post subject: Re: Spraying...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 2:21 pm
Posts: 8880
Raiden has sprayed right in front of me as well. He loves to look out the living room window that has a chair in front of it and he will sit on the stop of the chair and spray the window, then turn around and spray the fountain hanging on the wall. He sprays continuously on our walks. I know it is completely territorial although we only have raccoons and possums that come around. No other cats. He and Legs get along fine 99% of the time. It's hard to understand cats. When it comes to anxiety, vets are quick to recommend medications to help control that. It is difficult to control anything in a cat with just medications. And long-term effects are not good with cats.

Limiting Jagger's areas is a good suggestion from Brian. But, I just feel spraying is a natural function of a male (and sometimes female) cat. Most males that are neutered before sexual maturity and kept indoors never spray. It's when they get out with the other smells (foxes, other cats, etc) that the instinct kicks back in. This half of my subdivision smells like Raiden. LOL.

I know it's hard to deal with and then have Jon ill. Is the operation a transplant? I wish you both the best of luck and hope you will update us after.


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 Post subject: Re: Spraying...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:26 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat
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Location: Portland Oregon, USA
Oh, one kind of obvious thing that might help (and I'm sure you've tried it, but I'll mention it anyway...), I think Feliway would be a good thing to try if you haven't already. A diffuser right in his "hot spot(s)" would make sense. I think this exact case is pretty much what it was made for. Perhaps it would help.

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 Post subject: Re: Spraying...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:11 pm
Posts: 1196
brianj12 wrote:
Oh, one kind of obvious thing that might help (and I'm sure you've tried it, but I'll mention it anyway...), I think Feliway would be a good thing to try if you haven't already. A diffuser right in his "hot spot(s)" would make sense. I think this exact case is pretty much what it was made for. Perhaps it would help.


Hi Brian

It's a very good point! With the dining room incident a couple of weeks ago, I did only have the Friends Feliway plugged in so I've swapped back to the Classic but its very low so I'm waiting on a new supply arriving. The sooner the better as there was the incident this week as well now and becoming more frequent.

Last night, he got up as we were getting ready for bed and started howling to go out, so I topped up his litter tray, he watched Hendrix use his tray and then with no encouragement from me (for once) went and used his and as always, immediately calmed down, finished his tea and went off to bed - unfortunately in the living room which is his main hot spot.

I do close the door to the snug as otherwise, when they want to get up at crack of dawn they start playing with the blinds which makes a lot of noise and guaranteed to get me up - hence why they do it :lol:

I think when Jon is in hospital, I'm going to see how he reacts to having the door to the living room closed - but at the moment, I don't want Jon's sleep disturbed more than it has to be!

I do wonder if he is picking up on the anxiety and stress at home with Jon's operation looming as its happening more and more lately :sad:

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Clare
Hendrix and Jagger, Brown Marble Boys (born 18 August 2013)
Hampshire, UK


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 Post subject: Re: Spraying...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:02 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:11 pm
Posts: 1196
spitspot wrote:
Hey Clare,

Just a thought but is Hendrix up to his old tricks again? I Honestly think that if they have peed or sprayed inside before then there is always a good chance of it happening again. Oscar peed in my bedroom during the snow and also in my study a week ago. Absolutely no reason for last week and it is so difficult to understand it. I put a tent up at the weekend for the kids. Oscar sniffed all around it and I just knew he was going to spray to make the alien object his! I did what i have done before with tents and I got his main bed and rubbed it all over the tent.......literally everywhere so his hair and scent was on it. Could you do this in your home in the areas he has sprayed? Rubbing his bed over the tent made him very happy as he saw it as his property and didn't need to mark it!


Hi there Melissa

Those boys literally own the entire house :lol: the dining room cabinet they tend to play with their toys around it, knocking them under and backwards and forwards. So his scent is all over it - especially as that is his place for petting. He jumps on top and calls for his servants to make a fuss of him there and give him his very stinky valerian kicker toy that is shut in the drawer there.

I may also have a good look underneath to make sure no alien objects are under there - Hendrix brings home slow worms nearly every day at the moment and who knows if there is one under there lurking and freaking Jagger out!!

However, I will take his blankets and wipe them all over the shutters to see if it helps. The blinds he's always trying to get behind anyway and they have his scent all over as well!!

If nothing works I'll have to think about the zylkene again for him as we've finished a two month course now. Last night he was terrified of a cushion that Jon had managed to squash into a weird shape - he was on his belly, reaching his paw out to it and then ran off frightened! I had to put his cardboard scratcher bed there to see if he would realise it's all fine! Not a bed that would survive 5 minutes in your house :lol: :lol:


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Clare
Hendrix and Jagger, Brown Marble Boys (born 18 August 2013)
Hampshire, UK


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 Post subject: Re: Spraying...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:16 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 2:21 pm
Posts: 8880
Clare, cats react to the environment around them in different ways. Just as siblings will have different reactions, so will cats. The fact that Jon is ill could be a trigger. You just have to wonder why cat will use a litter box to pee in and then next time just go anywhere.

I put a feliway diffuser right next to Long Legs' bed and Raiden still peed on it. I think it is a possessive thing with Raiden. He hopped up into another bed that Legs uses but just slept there for hours. It would be nice if they shared. Legs also claims the top sleeper in one of the cat trees. The other tall tree has two sleepers plus a condo and they don't sleep there -- they both want the top of the other one. Crazy, I know.

Whenever I spot Raiden going to one of his spots, I chase him away and point to his litter box. 9 times out of 10, he will go there and pee.

Hey, I'm going bald from pulling my haircut -- you might as well join me. LOL


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 Post subject: Re: Spraying...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:45 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:11 pm
Posts: 1196
Sherry wrote:
Clare, cats react to the environment around them in different ways. Just as siblings will have different reactions, so will cats. The fact that Jon is ill could be a trigger. You just have to wonder why cat will use a litter box to pee in and then next time just go anywhere.

I put a feliway diffuser right next to Long Legs' bed and Raiden still peed on it. I think it is a possessive thing with Raiden. He hopped up into another bed that Legs uses but just slept there for hours. It would be nice if they shared. Legs also claims the top sleeper in one of the cat trees. The other tall tree has two sleepers plus a condo and they don't sleep there -- they both want the top of the other one. Crazy, I know.

Whenever I spot Raiden going to one of his spots, I chase him away and point to his litter box. 9 times out of 10, he will go there and pee.

Hey, I'm going bald from pulling my haircut -- you might as well join me. LOL


:lol: :lol:

Yes I also do the pointing at the litter tray with Jagger and eventually he will use it and then will calm down from the howling to go out - he generally needs you to tell him where to go! But spraying is completely different and definitely seems territorial.

I think I will just join you in pulling my hair out :cry:

On the plus side, mine do time shares on their beds and move around the house and use each other's beds without too much hassle! Jagger does get annoyed if Hendrix nicks a spot he's been regularly using in the afternoon though and will bash him round the head :lol: :lol: Hendrix just gives him a snooty look and won't budge!

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Hendrix and Jagger, Brown Marble Boys (born 18 August 2013)
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 Post subject: Re: Spraying...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 2:21 pm
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I'm really sorry, Clare. It is just annoying to have cat urine in your house that is not confined to a litter box. They do sell cat diapers, seriously! So if this a real chronic problem, you might want to try them out. Hendrix is not going to like them, but many breeders use them while traveling to cat shows since they are showing unaltered studs who have a tendency to spray.

Fortunately RW QGC JewelsPride Solo is okay with wearing pink.


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 Post subject: Re: Spraying...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:44 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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I want to know more about how diapers work on a cat that sprays.

Oberon sometimes pees and/or sprays by the front door. I don't know whether it is the coyotes and outdoor cats or the smooth surface that causes that. I have been dealing with that by infusing Dollar store mats with eucalyptus, lemon and cayenne. It works for a while. Maybe a week or two.Then 2 more $1 mats and I start all over. I spray to refresh them frequently.

He actually didn't pee or poop in my bath tub, despite it being empty for 2-3 weeks. Today I cleaned it and put in an inch of water with my citrus/eucalyptus deterrent again.

Did I tell the story of how I used hot sauce the first time I wanted to keep him from peeing and pooping in my tub. FYI red hot sauce dries to looks like blood... LOL. It looked like someone had been murdered, and it stained the tub too. Fortunately bleach took care of the stains.

Other times, he uses the toilet . Or even one of several litter boxes like a normal cat.

So do cats spray or pee while wearing the diaper? How unpleasant is it for them? Is it a deterrent? Does it affect the way they use the litter box when they aren't wearing them? Can they be used to train a cat to not spray or eliminate in the wrong places?

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 Post subject: Re: Spraying...
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:27 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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I truly no nothing about the cat diapers. I'm guessing they are absorbent like regular baby diapers. Most studs are kept in an enclosed area with a litter box, but I don't know if they use it when not wearing the diaper. Note, JewelsPride only uses them while in the hotel room while showing him as they definitely do not want him spraying up the hotel room.

You can order them online and they may have reviews or answer questions. I honestly don't know if they should be used regularly or as a training aid.

I am hoping Oberon didn't lick the hot sauce. I believe it can be toxic to cats, not to mention dangerous is their taste buds are more sensitive than ours. I love hot sauce and the hotter the better, but I'm not sure it's best for animals. We try to use hot pepper to keep the squirrels out of the bird feeders and that doesn't work. Sprinkle it on the soil of the vegetables and doesn't keep a critter out of them either.

It just seems me that if a critter or pet wants something or wants to do something (like spray), there is not much that you can do about it. Instincts are permanent.


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