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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 8:23 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:52 pm
Posts: 422
Location: East Yorkshire, UK
Hi everyone,

I thought it would be interesting to ask everyone about vaccinating against FIP ?

It isn't something I've considered doing as I felt that vaccinted with the 3 in 1 was enough for young kittens to deal with.

It would be great if we could rid this horrible killer.

Has anyone considered or used this vaccine ?

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:18 am 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:14 am
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Location: Sydney Australia
I didnt know there was a vaccine,,,,,


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:35 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:52 pm
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Location: East Yorkshire, UK
Hi,

they say there is no cure for FIP but only a preventative. But what scares me is, is that you could do more harm than good if your kitten was already carrying it. They say you have to titre test your cats for it. Something I was told is that a cat can have a high titre level for other reasons and not actually the FIP. It could be anything !!

You can put your cat in a stressful invironment such as a cat show or boarding cattery and then have your cats titre level tested. Generally though if they are carrying anything and they started to shed what ever it was they had you would probably see physical signs and then you would have tests done then to see what it was they were shedding.

That's why I think as a breeder it is important to have cats in small groups and stress free evironments. Also if your cat was going to come down with anything you wouldn't want to run the risk of spreading it through to all of your cats....that could be an expensive visit to the vets :shock:

It's an interesting topic I think :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:28 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:18 pm
Posts: 257
Location: surrey, uk
I would have to say yes, when i first took Tia to the vets for her check up
(when she was a kitten) the vet was shocked to find out that she wasn't vaccinated against leukimia, and after a short debate i had her done,
the vet pointed out that as parents we have our children vaccinated against MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) and that the small risk we take, far out weights the risks that are attatched with the diesese.
I do think it's a very individual choice, and although i would have it done, i can completely understand cat owners that would'nt.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:34 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:29 am
Posts: 471
Location: Blackpool
Having lost my baby to FIP in february. I would have to say yes. Anything that could stop this horrible killer

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 12:01 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 11:50 pm
Posts: 989
Location: Greenville, SC
D'oh... double post, sorry.

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Last edited by NutKitty on Fri May 18, 2007 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 12:24 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 11:50 pm
Posts: 989
Location: Greenville, SC
I lost a cat to FIP over four years ago, and I would not vaccinate against it.

The reason the vaccine is still so contraversial is because the vaccine doesn't seem to be effective enough to justify the risk - and there is the chance that a cat can develop FIP as a result of having the vaccine.

Having gone through it with my poor Sebby, it isn't something I'd ever want to accidently introduce to a healthy cat. Over 80% of cats can carry the coronavirus, but an extremely small percentage will have it mutate into FIP.

I'd rather not up those odds. :/

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 4:23 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:07 pm
Posts: 690
Location: north east
very interesting wildside as some of us would just take on a vets advice and just go along with such vaccs but after reading your links i agree that these could do more harm than good.


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 5:38 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:54 pm
Posts: 169
Location: UK
Hi

I think with a cut and dried disease like measles in that if you are exposed to the virus you tend to get the disease, then vaccination is probably a good thing. With FIP on the other hand, it is such a quirky disease that I would be very loathe to vaccinate, in case I was doing more harm than good.

From Susan Little's 2006 article (below) regarding FIP and the vaccine, nothing convinces me that 1. the vaccine is particularly safe and 2. the vaccine is particularly effective.

The full article is at http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/Pages/FIP_Web.pdf
Quote:
Since FIP is a severe and fatal disease, the safety of any vaccine is a paramount consideration. Dr. Fred Scott of the Cornell Feline Health Center concluded in a recently published paper, that the risks associated with the Primucell FIP® vaccine are minimal in most situations. He notes that the vaccine has been in use for many years with no increase in the incidence of FIP. Troubling reports of a phenomenon called "antibody-dependent enhancement" (ADE) of infection arose from several labs, where cats vaccinated with FIP vaccines and challenged experimentally with virus developed accelerated disease instead of being protected. It is not known whether the phenomenon of ADE occurs in the real world and there is no easy way to find out. If it does occur, it is likely an uncommon event, but the possibility remains troubling.

On the other side of the issue, the benefits of the Primucell FIP® vaccine appear to be small. The best reported efficacy for the vaccine is seen when FCoV negative cats at least 16 weeks old were vaccinated twice (3 weeks apart), in a study by Dr. Nancy Reeves published in 1995. In this study, FCoV antibody-negative cats were vaccinated before
entering a large cat shelter where FIP was endemic. The vaccinated cats experienced a significantly lower mortality rate than unvaccinated cats. The efficacy of the vaccination was calculated to be 75% (preventable fraction).

In catteries where FIP is endemic, studies have shown the vaccine had no effect on the incidence of disease. One reason may be that most kittens in catteries are infected between 6 and 10 weeks of age, long before the 16 weeks of age the vaccine is licensed for. Once a cat is infected with FCoV, the vaccine has no benefit. Some cattery owners have been using the vaccine at ages younger than 16 weeks to get around this problem. Dr. Johnny Hoskins has outlined a vaccination protocol for catteries experiencing FIP losses in kittens less than 16 weeks of age. He recommends giving the vaccine at 9, 13 and 17 weeks with annual revaccination afterward. Use of this protocol must be made with the knowledge that no controlled studies have been done on kittens under 16 weeks of age and that this is an off label use. It would appear that the use of the vaccine according to the manufacturer’s directions is limited to the vaccination of FCoV antibody-negative cats entering high-risk situations, such as catteries and shelters.


I also found this piece regarding FIP from a Turkish Angora breeder, which gives a breeders slant on things.
http://www.tahealth.net/fip.html

Re the genetic aspect

Quote:
Drs. Foley and Pedersen identified a genetic predisposition to the development of FIP in 1996. They examined pedigree and health data from 10 generations of cats in several purebred catteries and found that the heritability of susceptibility to FIP could be very high (about 50%).


Looking at this then it is really up to breeders to be responsible in not breeding from cats both male and female whose kittens have developed full blown FIP.


Elsa


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 7:01 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:52 pm
Posts: 422
Location: East Yorkshire, UK
Hi Elsa,

yes I totally agree with you. I'd said to Milo's owner that it was so important to let the breeder know straight away that one of her kittens had died of FIP. I wonder if his litter mates have it too or may do at a later stage....I hope not :cry:

If I was the breeder I wouldn't repeat the same mating as it seems to be that it is inherited. Then the question would be, is it the the dam or the sire that are carriers or both ??

I don't think it's a good idea to vaccinate for FIP after what I've read but I'd certainly neuter a cat that was giving me kittens that turned FIP or that had weak immune systems.

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Elaine Lomax
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 7:19 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:54 pm
Posts: 169
Location: UK
Hi Elaine

I don't think you can differentiate between the sire or the dam, basically both should be neutered in a perfect world.
This may be difficult to do if the the male is at public stud or belongs to another breeder.

See from the same article:-

Quote:
It is likely a polygenetic trait rather than a simple dominant or recessive mode of inheritance. Inbreeding, by itself, is not a risk factor. Selecting for overall disease resistance is a helpful tool for breeders. The likely defect in immunity to FIP is in cell-mediated immunity. Therefore cats that are susceptible to FIP are also likely susceptible to some other infections as well, especially fungal and viral infections. This finding gives breeders the ability to achieve success in reducing the risk of FIP by using pedigree analysis to select breeding cats from family backgrounds that have strong resistance to FIP and other infectious diseases.


Perhaps there should be a database set up of all registered Bengal cats/kittens that have died of FIP. That way the inheritance could be mapped out and susceptible lines be avoided.

Elsa


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 7:35 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:52 pm
Posts: 422
Location: East Yorkshire, UK
MMM...I'm not sure I'd want to neuter both though because what if you'd had your stud boy for several years and never had a problem before with FIP. What I mean is that it could just be one particular queen that had produced a kitten that died of FIP and that none of the other queens had it or have never had a problem ?

Maybe the queen has it and the stud is immune to it.

I'm not disagreeing at all as I'm no expert on this subject but I'm really interested :D

I've often wondered if it was possible that a kitten can catch FIP in it's new home where there are other cats that are shedding it ? Then it's difficut then to know where the kitten has picked it up or did it already have it.

Very scarey :(

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 7:47 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:52 pm
Posts: 422
Location: East Yorkshire, UK
Hi again Elsa,

Quote:
Therefore cats that are susceptible to FIP are also likely susceptible to some other infections as well, especially fungal and viral infections


I know of certain lines that are susceptable to pyometra which is probably caused from weaker immune systems. It would be great to see a data base of lines to avoid but I'm not sure if breeders would agree or be happy about to it though as it would put people off buying from them :shock:

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 9:06 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:54 pm
Posts: 169
Location: UK
Hi,

I think that unless you are selling a cat to a multi-cat household or to another cattery, then the likelihood is that the kitten had the coronavirus infection firstly in the breeder's home and the mutation then happened between 6-24 months ->FIP.

Catteries/breeders are far more likely to have coronavirus infection than a normal household. I still don't think though that you can place the blame solely on breeders. I think the blame partially is in the cat itself in that it has an abnormal reaction to the coronavirus leading to FIP. The blame is also on the fact that coronavirus is such a common infection, 80-90% in catteries and 30-40% in the general cat population. How can you have a completely negative environment when you could quite easily bring it home on the soles of your shoes? The incidence of FIP is not really high enough for us to have our cats in a intensive clinical environment, and would that be good for our cats anyway, gloves and masks etc....

The database would only contain cats/kittens that had FIP, we can all make our own conclusions re lines. One kitten with FIP in a line may not be very significant but if you could see a few then there may indeed be a problem.

The breeders who are knowingly breeding from cats with FIP kittens or sickly kittens/cats are negligent in my mind anyway so they do not actually deserve to be selling kittens. They are in fact escalating the problem.

I know it would probably unworkable unless it was an offense eg via the GCCF or TICA to not enter an FIP kitten in the database.

In a perfect world............ :)

Elsa


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 9:32 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:52 pm
Posts: 422
Location: East Yorkshire, UK
Hi Elsa,

Quote:
The breeders who are knowingly breeding from cats with FIP kittens or sickly kittens/cats are negligent in my mind anyway so they do not actually deserve to be selling kittens. They are in fact escalating the problem.


yes I totally agree with you :x

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