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Is it a Bengal ?
Poll ended at Sun May 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Yes 10%  10%  [ 1 ]
No 90%  90%  [ 9 ]
Total votes : 10
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:09 pm 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:01 pm
Posts: 17
Hello Elsa,

Thank you for your responses in this thread. - I dont claim to know much about cats, and it seems there are people out there who will gladly take advantage of this fact !

I would really really love to own a Bengal, however I cannot believe the price that some 'breeders' are asking, upto £500/600 for a kitten which isn't even going to be entered into a show in it's life ! I simply cannot justify spending so much when it comes to a family pet. This was my reasoning behined trying to get a 'cross' as pedigree prices cannot be asked for.

It would seem most people are more concerned with lining their pockets than the actual welfare of the animals in question - And that is very wrong.

Anyhow. My search continues. There must be a resonably priced kitten in the area.

Thanks again for your advice and posts.

J


Last edited by b0redj0rd on Mon May 07, 2007 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 7:24 pm 
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Senior Bengal

Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:25 am
Posts: 50
Location: south wales uk
Hi there, where do you keep finding these breeders? It sounds very suspicious that a Bengal owner would allow their expensive cat to get impregnated by any old Tom ( dick or Harry!). When I had my pet quality Bengal I had to sign a contract promising to have him neutered to prevent him breeding. I believe this is normal practice, so do not understand how this cat was able to get out and mate. I would study that certificate carefully, perhaps post a photo of it, I am sure someone on here could tell you if it looks authentic.
On a positive note, those kittens are lovely, but I wouldn't be prepared to pay more for them than for any other moggy. Have you tried your local cats protection people, they often have kittens at this time of year as well as adult cats in need of a good home, they also screen the cats health.
Let us know how you get on
good luck
ali


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 7:29 pm 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:01 pm
Posts: 17
Hey there Ali =)

I found the first breeder on Kittenlist.co.uk, and the second on ukclassifieds.com. Both responded saying that (the first lady in particular) they were Bengals, one even sent me a photo of a random Bengal cat off the internet !! a 90 mile round trip later (and a post on here!) and I've found out they're 'fakes'

I havent seen the second lot of kittens, but at least she's openly admitted they are crosses - Whether they are or not is debatable. She HAS offered to post a copy of a certificate for this mother though, which I may ask her to do.
.. I'm getting slightly dishartened in all honesty, I'm looking for a 'proper' breeder who would be willing to let one go for a more reasonable price - up to £250. I dont know how lucky I'll be with that though as it seems people are more interested in money than giving a kitten a lifelong home :(


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:40 pm 
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The Boss
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Posts: 1240
Hey Jord - As a breeder I'm offended by your comments above!

You've no idea how much it costs to produce bengal kitten to a high standard, and to be perfectly honest I can't even be bothered explaining the facts to you after reading your last posts on this thread.

Sure I will agree with you that there are "some" breeders out there who'll extort you out of your money for a inferior/cross breed or as you put it "fake" bengal, but if you were willing to do just a little research you'd be able to sort the good out from the bad. What are your reasons for getting a Bengal exactly, have you read about the breed and do you know anything of the history behind the breed.....what are your motives for owning a bengal?

Also I don't understand what you mean by your comment about the price of a kitten even though it'll never be shown. It shouldn't make a bit of difference to the price at all as its still the same kitten regardless....even if its just going to be a family pet. Show cats don't just sit in cages 24/7....they have families that love them too you know!

However I do understand your point about not being able to afford or justify £500-600 on a family pet, but you'll just be kidding yourself if you buy a cross-breed and think it'll be anything like a bengal in its nature!

If you really want a bengal then just save up your money a little longer, do some research and get the real deal, you won't regret it.....ask anyone on this forum and they'll say the same.

Also one last thing, don't tar all breeders with the same brush.....some of us actually care about the breed and work towards the future for the bengal breed, you whinged about a 90 mile round trip to see kittens....just the other weekend I went to a meeting/AGM regarding bengals which was a 6 hour round trip not to mention the 4 hour duration of the meeting itself, this is something we do every 3 months.....There was atleast one other breeder from this forum there also too, so I'm sure they're equally offended with your comments.

Just because you can't or won't justify the cost of a pure bred animal doesn't mean we're all bad to the core like you imply.....We don't make money from our breeding, it all goes back into our cats futures whether it be showing or welfare.

You don't know what happens behind the scenes to keep the bengal breed alive and moving forward in the uk!

on another note - whilst I personally don't want to offend anyone both human and feline....I must point out that this is the Bengal cat forum!

Thank you and good night......"cue the Elsa" :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 pm 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:01 pm
Posts: 17
meemonkey wrote:
Hey Jord - As a breeder I'm offended by your comments above!

You've no idea how much it costs to produce bengal kitten to a high standard, and to be perfectly honest I can't even be bothered explaining the facts to you after reading your last posts on this thread.

Sure I will agree with you that there are "some" breeders out there who'll extort you out of your money for a inferior/cross breed or as you put it "fake" bengal, but if you were willing to do just a little research you'd be able to sort the good out from the bad. What are your reasons for getting a Bengal exactly, have you read about the breed and do you know anything of the history behind the breed.....what are your motives for owning a bengal?

Also I don't understand what you mean by your comment about the price of a kitten even though it'll never be shown. It shouldn't make a bit of difference to the price at all as its still the same kitten regardless....even if its just going to be a family pet. Show cats don't just sit in cages 24/7....they have families that love them too you know!

However I do understand your point about not being able to afford or justify £500-600 on a family pet, but you'll just be kidding yourself if you buy a cross-breed and think it'll be anything like a bengal in its nature!

If you really want a bengal then just save up your money a little longer, do some research and get the real deal, you won't regret it.....ask anyone on this forum and they'll say the same.

Also one last thing, don't tar all breeders with the same brush.....some of us actually care about the breed and work towards the future for the bengal breed, you whinged about a 90 mile round trip to see kittens....just the other weekend I went to a meeting/AGM regarding bengals which was a 6 hour round trip not to mention the 4 hour duration of the meeting itself, this is something we do every 3 months.....There was atleast one other breeder from this forum there also too, so I'm sure they're equally offended with your comments.

Just because you can't or won't justify the cost of a pure bred animal doesn't mean we're all bad to the core like you imply.....We don't make money from our breeding, it all goes back into our cats futures whether it be showing or welfare.

You don't know what happens behind the scenes to keep the bengal breed alive and moving forward in the uk!

whilst I personally don't want to offend anyone both human and feline....I must point out that this is the Bengal cat forum!

Thank you and good night......"cue the Elsa" :wink:


Hi there, I feel I must respond also. Accept my apologies for my generalization regarding breeders - I of course know that the people I refer to are probably the exception rather than the majority.

I want a Bengal cat because I think they look amazing. I've a friend who bought one a couple of years back and it looked very striking and had a lovely personality - My girlfriend and I recently decided on getting a pet and I thought I'd look into buying either a Bengal or a Siberian (another friend has one - he's lovely too (the cat!))

As I've not had any pets myself during my adult life, I wasn’t really aware of the price that these breeds go for - I looked for a few weeks and contacted a few private sellers and, eventually, was very happy to find the seller who I visited (the first lot of pictures) who told me she had a couple for sale and at a very reasonable price. She told me they were Bengals, sent me a picture of a non-existent Bengal kitten and I went to see her, believing that the picture was authentic. I took the pictures and posted them here, in a //Bengal// forum as I was told the kittens were from //Bengal// parents but I knew they looked different. That's why I'm here.
This is also the reason for me 'whinging' about the 90 mile trip - I'm obviously prepared to travel to find one otherwise I wouldn't have gone to visit. I was 'whinging' because it was a wasted trip, I have no problem with traveling for the right cat.

My reasons for mentioning the cat would be 'pet only' are : this term is quoted on many breeders webpages, the price seems to increase for a cat which is deemed to be of 'breeding or show quality' as you say 'It shouldn't make a bit of difference to the price at all as its still the same kitten regardless' - I wish that was the case, but evidently it is not. I have seen £600/700 kittens because they are from champion lines and their parents have won shows but as a buyer who's looking for a 'family pet' this doesn't really matter to me, I just want an affectionate cat !

As I said before – I’m sure the majority of the Breeders out there are scrupulous, and I humbly apologize for the generalization. My reasons for saying the some people care more about money than the welfare of an animal was actually for a scenario I was thinking :

There’s me : Person who’s looking for a pet, who will probably live with them for all of their lives in a nice, ‘home’ environment. Can afford to pay less, because there is nothing to be gained from having the cat other than …. Having the cat ! :wink:

Or there’s someone (not you ;) ) who’s looking for a ‘stud’ or a ‘queen’. These people can pay more because of the money gained through using the cat for this purpose – After a few years the cat is ‘retired’ and appears on the Bengal Rescue list, or is sold at a ‘cut price’ as I have seen on many adverts already. They are sold and moved to a new, unknown environment.

Which is better for the cat :?:

I realize that is only one scenario, but you asked for my reasons and those are them. I was feeling quite dejected with the whole experience to be honest after reading the responses re: the kitten pictures. I have decided to contact some legitimate breeders as opposed to private sellers, I’ll book one early and save – As you said, I’m sure I’ll feel it was worth the extra effort in the end.

I didn’t / don’t mean to tread on anyone’s toes, have a good night 8)


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 12:24 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:54 pm
Posts: 169
Location: UK
Hi

If you do the sums, breeding Bengals "right", is therefore not about making money and there are a number of breeders on this forum who are "doing it right", meemonkey being one of them. They care about their cats and care about who they sell them to and don't sell cats to unscrupulous people who are out to make a quick buck.

If you are a "Person who’s looking for a pet" and "I just want an affectionate cat !"
and don't want to pay the price of a Bengal then what is wrong with a rescue Bengal or a moggie? I can't quite see your argument.

You are trawling around looking to find a diamond in a coal mine and getting upset when you cannot find it, when all you need to do is go to a diamond mine instead, all you will find in a coal mine is coal.
You then have an issue with price, you can argue with the diamond miners all you like but they are not going to sell you a good diamond at the price of a piece of coal. I am afraid just because you want something doesn't alter market forces.

Start saving now!! :)

Regards

Elsa


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 5:53 am 
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The Boss
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Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:41 am
Posts: 1240
No need for apoligies on here, It's a public forum and you're well within your right to say whatever you feel Jord....I just needed to make you aware that there are very reputable breeders out there who take pride in what they do. You've just gotta weed through the bad ones and find someone you trust and believe in!

Sadly you're right in the fact thats theres lots of callous ones.

The small ads and dodgy generalised kitten lists aren't really the best place to find the more discerning breeders, start with the main breed clubs and trawl through the breeder websites that are listed up on there.....even then, do your homework and buyer beware!

I'm not sure where in the uk your based but there is a clear north/south divide concerning pet prices, you obviously know already about queen/stud prices but I'm really talking about pet prices here. I know it may seem a hell of a lot of money to pay out for just a pet, but quite simply "you get what you pay for" in the pure breed world whatever the breed you choose. Some breeders may charge high prices just because they think they can get away with it whilst others have clearly put a lot of hard work building up their reputation with showing or importing top lines in from the us and canada....this is for you to decide!

Also you must take into account what actually comes with a kitten, as Elsa pointed out some people want to "do it right" and others cut corners....this is where your small ad/dodgy cheap kittens come in. We are based in the north west and there's plenty of these kind of kittens in our local loot small ads paper, half breeds @ £150 and alledgedly pure bred bengals @ £250. I'll put my life on it that neither will come with any vaccs or papers....maybe a photocopy of mums pedigree if your lucky. (I've never understood the point of a photocopied pedigree)

It makes my blood boil but sadly theres nothing I can do about these unsavory people and there's no law in the land to deal with them....its not about them ripping people off that makes me furious, its the poor wee little kitten and the fact that anyone who pays enough money can take it home regardless of its future wellbeing/welfare just because of their greed and laziness.....and don't think this kind of mentality is limited just to BYB's!

Anyways enough from me, thanks for answering my questions....you didn't have to but you took the time....I respect that! :wink:

ultimately bengals are worth it, save a little longer and you'll find what your looking for. We sold a boy who made the first uk supreme alter award for pet prices last year and another two boys went in december who both have the potential to be just as sucessful in the 2007/2008 season (one is a member on this very forum), our prices were nowhere near the ones you've been quoted.....as I've said above for some its more about pride than money!

Remember only put a deposit down only when your sure you feel comfortable with a breeder.....be prepared to travel and wait for the right kitten, never bow down to pressure from the breeder to make a decision on the spot!

follow that lot and you won't go far wrong. :wink:

Lukey

p.s don't rule out a rescue cat though, even if your dead-set on a bengal there's plenty of rehoming schemes and rescue centres just for bengals.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:34 am 
Hi,

I can only echo what Elsa and Meemonkey have said (I'm not a breeder though - just an enthusiastic owner!). I spent about a year researching Bengals before our two boys came home with us. I had to be absolutely sure they were right for us as I am severely allergic to "normal" cats and couldn't afford to make a mistake (not in monetary terms, but in making sure I didn't end up in hospital!).
The breeder we bought from lives about 130 miles from us and we made two visits before we picked up our kittens - one as a general introduction and one to choose our kittens. Any good breeder will be as particular about who they sell their kittens to as prospective owners about which breeder's cats they like :lol:
Our boys cost us just over £1000 (one is a silver kitten and they are more expensive). This is a significant amount to pay for family pets (as my hubby sometimes reminds me :oops: ) but it was the right price to pay for kittens that were carefully bred and socialised in a family home.
I honestly think that you shouldn't be able to get a Bengal kitten for much less than £400 and I would be worried if I saw kittens advertised for significantly lower prices. You will pay more than that for silvers and any kittens that are of breeding quality that are sold as pets.

I don't have any experience of other pedigree breeds but imagine they're not that dissimilar to Bengals - the difference is that Bengals are a newer breed and so new bloodstock has to be introduced from other parts of the world - not a cheap matter for a breeder! (I have just done a little internet research and the average for breeds like Maine Coons and Siamese is also around the £400 mark).

I have seen young adult or ex-breeding cats advertised for around £100 to cover the cost of spaying and maybe this is an option for you? Do you definitely have to have a kitten? Bear in mind that you can't have your kitten until they are at least 13 weeks old and they're no longer tiny at this stage! Have a look at http://www.bengalkittenlist.co.uk/classifieds.htm and you'll see a whole range of gorgeous cats for sale more within your price range if you really can't stretch to the price of a kitten.

I would urge you not to buy a cross-breed or other suspiciously cheap kitten - you will not be getting a true Bengal (and believe me, there is a difference - everyone who visits our house is amazed by our boys and we've even converted a non-cat lover who is thinking of getting one himself!). You will be doing a great dis-service to all of the dedicated breeders and you will probably end up being disappointed. (you will never, for example, experience the joys of playing fetch with your cat :D )

One final thing to bear in mind (as another thread on this forum will tell you) is that two Bengals are better than one if you are out of the house a lot. They are highly intelligent and with a low boredom threshold.....it's another thing to consider. I dread to think what either of my boys would be like if they were on their own - at least they have each other to chase around the house at 100 miles an hour when we're at work!

Best of luck and let us know how you get on with your search...

Teresa


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:39 am 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:01 pm
Posts: 17
Teressa, Luke, Elsa - Thank you all for your advice, I will take on board what you have said and do some more research on the subject.

I will stop looking in the small ad's and find someone more legitamate via the Bengal Kitten List or similar - If I can't find something suitable then I'll begin to look on the rescue listings. I fully accept I have been doing the equivalent of looking for a diamond in a coal mine, it's human nature to try (at least) to get the best price for something that you can - Unfortunatley with regard to animals the cheapest isn't usually the best.


I'll let you know how I get on. Hopefully my next topic started will be me showing a beautiful Bengal of my own !

Thanks again for all of the advice.

Jordan

PS. Luke - I am in the North of Wales, so not too far from your area. Do you have a website I could have a look at ?


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 11:30 am 
Hi Jordan,

I think you're making the right decision. Don't feel you have to wait until you get your Bengal before posting again though - lots of people join the forum before their kittens arrive to get advice :D

If you want to look for breeders in your area then the Bengal Cat Club of Great Britain has a search by area: http://www.bengalcat.org.uk/ - look under Breeder's Advertisements.....(although I don't think Luke is that far from you and he and Heidi have absolutely gorgeous kittens :wink: )

The site also advertises adult cats for re-homing so that's another option for you.

Hope to hear from you again as you continue your search - be warned though, it becomes addictive!

Best wishes

Teresa


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 5:32 pm 
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Senior Bengal

Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:34 pm
Posts: 62
Location: South Lincs
Wow this one got quite heated for a while.
Well said Luke and Elsa.
The cost of a pure bred Bengal does sound high to would be pet owners but consider the fact that those of us who buy cats from abroad pay up to £4000 when the cost of quarantine is included. To buy top quality breeding stock here can cost £1500 for a queen.
There are breeders that don't put back lots of money into new stock but for those of us that care about progressing the breed and showing the best, we are forever dipping into our pockets.
These cats are our life and because of it holidays are rare or non existent.
The amount of time and effort that goes into producing top quality kittens cannot be added up or they would cost even more.

Regards

Liz Slater

Junglefire Bengals


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 5:41 am 
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The Boss
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Posts: 1240
Liz - you know only too well how much showing can amount up to, both you and Kevin are always there at virtually every Tica show stood right along side us.....win, lose or draw! :lol:

winning mostly in your case! :wink:

personally I really can't bring myself to add it all up but we must spend in excess of £2000 each year in showing fees, both with Tica and GCCF (including travel, accommodation and other expenses), and why....because we crave success, not for us but for our cats....and not a holiday in sight!

How can you include that expense into the price of your kittens if you only produce a couple of litters a year....it just wouldn't and couldn't happen, there's so much that the innocent future pet owner just doesn't take into account when contemplating the price of a quality bred kitten.

Importing new lines is a whole different ball game, and your so right in what you're saying regarding passing the costs on to new owners.....if we declared ourselves as a vat registered business we'd be prosecuted for poor trading for sure....we run at a definate total loss on all accounts as do many hobby breeders, but thats another debate!

Even breeders that just bounce on the already imported lines would surely be working at a loss for aleast a couple of litters, if everything was done correctly and above board.


Jordan - our website is http://www.nordiquestar.co.uk/

we don't have any kittens available at the moment but check out the kitten page anyways and click on the "kitten pack" link.....this is what we perceive as the bare minimum a reputable breeder should make available to you when you offer rehome a kitten (pet) from them. Also have a look through our show history, it stretches on and on but this is where our pride lies.

p.s Also Liz - nevermind heated, I believe Elsa has a dark-side that would put us all to shame.....make no mistake! :shock: :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 6:16 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:54 pm
Posts: 169
Location: UK
Hi

A dark side, is a wee bit harsh :(
It implies I am the devil incarnate. :twisted:

As regards those kitten mills, however you may be right.

Elsa


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 3:04 am 
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The Boss
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Only joking with you Elsa! :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 10:07 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:54 pm
Posts: 169
Location: UK
Hi

I know. :D

Elsa


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