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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:25 am 
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Please try to keep this thread on topic.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:13 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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His progress since we first brought him home with us. He was very underweight when we first got him (first picture, 8 weeks), he's come a long way!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:19 pm 
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lollo2304 wrote:
bkilgore wrote:
I am glad to hear that your baby is settling in well and taken up by his new "daddy" so to speak! I am also glad to hear that you have conformation that he is a bengal and you will probably get your paperwork after everything is settled. That is how it was with my dog anyway,about 8 months after we got him we got papers in the mail to transfer him from the state of Tennessee to me, I was surprised to have recieved them!


Not sure about getting the papers. Depends who the parents are registered with (there is more than one used in the UK). It would be difficult to figure out who dad was and to properly confirm who mom was as well. Also, in order to register kittens you have to have a 'certificate of entireity' lodged with the governing body for the dad. This is proof, from a vet, that the dad is entire. It. can only be valid if the dad is on the active register. It is probable that this is not the case.

It is different with dogs as there is no 'active' register. Pretty much anyone can breed their dog.


I made the point about rabbit hutches so that people don't think it is wrong if they see a breeder using 1 or 2. Some people who replied on here were horrified so I wanted to make sure they were aware that it can be normal though not in this case!!



I agree with lorraine i dont see how the op will get papers, i doubt very much the breeding cats are registered nor the litter of kittens,

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:25 pm 
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As I said previously, the only cats she kept there were all bengals, so i'm pretty sure he is a bengal, and yes I know without papers I will never know for sure, but I doubt given the situation we will never know properly, they did find registration papers at the property for all of the adults but none for any of the kittens so obviously none of the kittens were registered. Either way, I wasn't planning on showing him or breeding him so it matters not. He is still a bengal. I know in previous threads people have said that without papers he isn't a bengal...that's like saying that without a birth certificate you're not a human...ridiculous. He is whatever breed he is and doesn't need papers to prove it as I am not showing him or planning on breeding him :) He is doing amazingly well and I am so proud of him, my little trooper!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:54 pm 
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Just wanted to correct this statement for information

'It is different with dogs as there is no 'active' register. Pretty much anyone can breed their dog'

People are still bound to endorsements if their dogs are registered pedigree, an endorsement is the same as being on the non-active register, once lifted the progeny can be registered but whilst an endorsement remains on the registration progeny cannot be registered with a governing body.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:15 pm 
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Lacemoat wrote:
Just wanted to correct this statement for information

'It is different with dogs as there is no 'active' register. Pretty much anyone can breed their dog'

People are still bound to endorsements if their dogs are registered pedigree, an endorsement is the same as being on the non-active register, once lifted the progeny can be registered but whilst an endorsement remains on the registration progeny cannot be registered with a governing body.


I actually did not know this as my close friend is a breeder of Scottish Terriers and she says anyone who buys her girl pups can breed from them as there is no active in dogs.... she is a respected breeder and shows/judges scotties. She often criticises pedigree cats for elitism for having to register cats active in order to breed.

I'll question her more next time i see her as it is often a subject of interest.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:16 pm 
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miakc1 wrote:
As I said previously, the only cats she kept there were all bengals, so i'm pretty sure he is a bengal, and yes I know without papers I will never know for sure, but I doubt given the situation we will never know properly, they did find registration papers at the property for all of the adults but none for any of the kittens so obviously none of the kittens were registered. Either way, I wasn't planning on showing him or breeding him so it matters not. He is still a bengal. I know in previous threads people have said that without papers he isn't a bengal...that's like saying that without a birth certificate you're not a human...ridiculous. He is whatever breed he is and doesn't need papers to prove it as I am not showing him or planning on breeding him :) He is doing amazingly well and I am so proud of him, my little trooper!



I dont think anyone is saying he isnt a Bengal, he does look like 1 to me, and as you say your not showing him, glad to hear he is doing so well.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:25 pm 
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Yup its up to the breeder if they place the endorsements on but they are :-

"x" Puppy is restricted from being exported
"R" Puppy is restricted from having it's progeny registered by the kennel club

These are placed by the breeder to safe-guard their puppies, even dogs sold for breeding will have R endorsement on if that particular breed is subject to health tests and will only remove it once proof of satisfactory health tests are received - for example my breed german shepherds are hip and elbow scored at 1yr of age. Only when removed can their offspring be registered. Do check - but I am right lol

ETA here you go, here is the official blurb http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/365 :)

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Last edited by Lacemoat on Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Oh i know its just i thought i would post in advance of somebody going down that route to save people saying i wont be able to show him etc as i am already aware :) thank you for all your comments


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:50 pm 
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You can add limited registration on a dog which will not allowed the dog to have puppies regiested as that dog being sire or dam but there is not an active registry for dogs! When I sold my puppies I placed limited registration on them so they could not have puppies and have them registerd and the only way they could is if they had AKC contact me as the breeder to give them breeding rights! I dont think that CKC has the same thing though as it cost nothing to register with CKC and you can register a mutt with them! I have a poodle maltise mix a mutt basically and he is regiestered with CKC. Its totally different in the breeding world with dogs

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:25 pm 
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miakc1 wrote:
As I said previously, the only cats she kept there were all bengals, so i'm pretty sure he is a bengal, and yes I know without papers I will never know for sure, but I doubt given the situation we will never know properly, they did find registration papers at the property for all of the adults but none for any of the kittens so obviously none of the kittens were registered. Either way, I wasn't planning on showing him or breeding him so it matters not. He is still a bengal. I know in previous threads people have said that without papers he isn't a bengal...that's like saying that without a birth certificate you're not a human...ridiculous. He is whatever breed he is and doesn't need papers to prove it as I am not showing him or planning on breeding him :) He is doing amazingly well and I am so proud of him, my little trooper!



This has come about because there are a number of breeders that do not register their kittens because they can't... usually due to the parents not being full pedigrees or not on the active register. Unfortunately so many pedigrees have been forged in the past so the only proof you have that the kitten is a pure pedigree are it's registration papers. It costs very little to register kittens so the only reason not to register them is to cut corners/kittens are not pure bred/ parents should not be bred from/too many kittens bred from parents in last 12 months. All in all it leads to an irresponsible breeder who should not be trusted..... You can attest to that with the breeder of your boy.

You can show him. Maybe not as a bengal as he doesn't have papers... But there are pedigree pet and non-pedigree pet sections that can achieve rosettes.

People often say that the papers mean nothing as they are not going to show or breed their cat. But papers are not just for that purpose. I have papers for all mine and 3 of them are not show or breed cats but it is so important that i have their papers as it proves i paid £X for what i got and that they were bred appropriately. Knowing what i know now, i would never buy an unregistered cat. Not because i'm a cat snob and can only have pedigree cats but because i will not line the pockets of irresponsible breeders. I would rather rehome a rescue. One day i will have another ginger moggie, my first cat that i had when i had my own house was a very grumpy ginger moggie.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:29 pm 
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Lacemoat wrote:
Yup its up to the breeder if they place the endorsements on but they are :-

"x" Puppy is restricted from being exported
"R" Puppy is restricted from having it's progeny registered by the kennel club

These are placed by the breeder to safe-guard their puppies, even dogs sold for breeding will have R endorsement on if that particular breed is subject to health tests and will only remove it once proof of satisfactory health tests are received - for example my breed german shepherds are hip and elbow scored at 1yr of age. Only when removed can their offspring be registered. Do check - but I am right lol

ETA here you go, here is the official blurb http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/365 :)



Thanks for the clarification.

I will question her on it next time i see her as she has led me to believe it is so different. She is a dog person, never would have a cat and cannot see the point in pedigree cats :roll:

Quite annoyed with her now :evil:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Thats fair enough lollo, but i never would have left him there under those conditions, and had i had support with me i would have taken them all. Anybody who would leave an animal in those kind of conditions because of papers is a heartless cold person. Irrelevant whether you think i should have or not, it was the right thing to do and so i did. I am fully aware of the relevance of registration papers etc as i have egyptian maus, all registered with certificates,some i show, some i dont


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:26 pm 
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miakc1 wrote:
Thats fair enough lollo, but i never would have left him there under those conditions, and had i had support with me i would have taken them all. Anybody who would leave an animal in those kind of conditions because of papers is a heartless cold person. Irrelevant whether you think i should have or not, it was the right thing to do and so i did. I am fully aware of the relevance of registration papers etc as i have egyptian maus, all registered with certificates,some i show, some i dont


I never said you were wrong to take the kitten given the circumstances. I even praised you for your actions earlier on in this thread.
loll2304 wrote:
Anyway, all that being said you have saved all those kitties so well done you. I always have problems with people that continue to buy the kitten, get home and thank themselves lucky and pat themselves on the back for 'saving the kitten' then carry on and hope their kitten doesn't have problems. All they have done is show the 'breeder' that they can get away with it. Your story is so refreshing though as you did the right thing and reported them!! Thank you so much for doing this! This kind of breeder gets away with, generally because people take the kitten and run, never looking back.

I was just pointing out why papers are important as people keep saying that they are not unless you plan to breed or show. I am saddened right now at the amount of inverse snobbery there is about having registration papers. It belittles all the good things that decent breeders do. I spend so much money and put so much effort into breeding healthy kittens. I put my heart and sole into it, i hand reared one of my recent kittens for 4 days giving hourly feeds for 2 days before progressing to 2 hourly only for him to die. It is very traumatic. And it really saddens me when people say things like 'papers doesn't matter' because it is proof that i have bred my babies in accordance with the guidelines set out by GCCF.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:33 pm 
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I agree with you completely and i am so very sorry to hear that you lost one of your babies, cannot imagine the heartache you must have felt and are still feeling. I only meant that in this particular case i just sought to help him and i did think initially theough the registered breeders list that she was a trusted and responsible breeder. :-( of which she most certainly is not.


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