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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:16 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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Brian health will always be the top of my list when it comes to breeding.

Are you accusing me of 'throwing mud'? as I am a breeder who has commented on this thread. If so - I was actually speaking in general terms about my own experiences of when breeding for a certain trait over health and the FACT is my pet was ill because of it.

As I previously stated Ive no idea about siamese - and I won't single out any breeds or breeders but felt compelled to comment in agreement that exaggerated breeding is not the way forward - in ANY breed :roll: and the truth is some breeders DO put health on the back burner.

- Its a forum...you have to be able to handle people will have differing views without resulting to getting irate because they don't share yours.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:01 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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I think we all need to agree to disagree now.

I think everyone here agrees that the health of any animal is always a must but I do think it's getting a bit heavy.

Let's all agree to disagree and not start falling out with one another.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:39 pm 
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Good idea :wink: ....although I will agree with you on something - Kermit didn't half make me laugh too :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:40 pm 
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Lacemoat wrote:
Good idea :wink: ....although I will agree with you on something - Kermit didn't half make me laugh too :lol:


I know. You can always count on viper keeper to cut the tension :D

It's the top one that made me laugh


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:09 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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brianj12 wrote:
This thread is ridiculous. It's too bad that we don't have any oriental breeders here to defend themselves, but I do find it disappointing that bengal breeders would be in here throwing mud. To me that's definitely the pot calling the kettle black. Extremes? Cosmetic extremes? BS. So when you are evaluating a cat to be part of your breeding program, and you see one that has especially nice markings you turn it down because it's not mundane enough? lol. No, it jumps right to the top of your list.

And since when does selective breeding equate to in-breeding? For gosh sakes, that breeder even posted the lineage right on their webpage for everyone to see. The gene pool is big enough that there is no need for in-breeding, and the only reason to do it would be laziness. Ordering a breeding stud is about as easy as ordering a pizza.

And all this talk about physical defects as a result of "extreme breeding", and then this being particularly present in the oriental breed.... what evidence is there of this? Certainly the insurance companies don't seem to think there is any such connection. Go ahead and go to one of the big insurance companies and see if the rate would be different for orientals than for bengals. There's certainly no difference in my premiums.

This whole argument basically boils down to somebody not liking the aesthetic that some breeders have gone for. Well you know what? Don't own one then. Why go on a witch hunt and try to bully other people into "boycotting" them simply because you don't like the aesthetic?


I wish it was as easy as not liking the aesthetic, unfortunately it is not.
Perhaps we should listen to an established Oriental breeder about the diminishing gene pool of Orientals and his worries as regards the health of the breed.
http://www.oriental-cat-breeder.co.uk/i ... rrison.php written in 2010
Quote:
Diminishing gene pool
Over the past few years, there has been a significant reduction in the number of breeders of the Oriental, and as a consequence a drastic reduction in the number of Oriental studs, and breeding queens. This of necessity means that the gene pool is growing ever smaller and the relationship between cats is becoming ever closer; if the present trend continues there will be few if any Oriental breeding cats which are not closely related.

Because of the restrictions imposed by the Registration Policies, out-lined above, whereas Oriental Longhairs and Oriental Bicolours can be mated out to the Oriental Shorthair, for an injection of fresh blood, unfortunately the reverse is not possible. As the gene pool shrinks the cats will become increasingly inbred, and as homogeneity increases the divergence of type will become ever more pronounced - the cats within each of the three breed groups will become increasingly similar, but the differences between the breed groups will be heightened. This, in itself, is a serious problem for the Oriental as a breed type.

However of far greater importance is the fact that it is highly likely that the diminishing gene pool will have a detrimental effect on the health, fertility, vitality and stamina of the cats, commonly referred to as 'inbred inertia'. If skeletal and physical defects are present within the gene pool (and we must all accept that they are) they will become increasingly apparent in the progeny, and as the years go by Judges can expect to see more defects in the animals they judge. While this will be apparent in cats seen at shows, please spare a thought for those that don't 'make the grade'. This is not the way we should be going, and is in contradiction with our declared aim of protecting the welfare of cats.

Fertility is likely to deteriorate, and indeed I think it fair to say that this is already happening, in the 1970's and 1980's litters of 6 or more kittens were the norm, today it seems that litters are generally 4 or less. This reduction in litter size is not coincidental with, but rather the result of, a declining gene pool.

Possibly one of the most worrying aspects of a reducing gene pool is the increasing probability of reduced vitality, stamina and disease resistance. In the cat population at large some animals will have a predisposition to certain illnesses, just as some will have an increased resistance. With a diminishing gene pool, cats will become increasingly inbred and are likely to have identical predispositions; the consequence should not need stating. From our own recent history, when we lost nine of our cats, I know only too well that when a closed colony of cats is challenged with a serious viral infection certain cats will survive whilst others will perish, and in our case there was a clear familial link - coincidence? I think not. As we found a reliance on vaccines and drugs is not always enough …..

As a man-made breed moves further away from its origins so the breadth of the gene-pool will shrink, that is a given. The Oriental Shorthair and Longhair were created less than half a century ago from various and diverse breeds including Siamese, Russian Blue, Devon Rex, Cornish Rex, Chinchilla, British Shorthair, Burmese, Manx, Abyssinian and the good old 'Farmyard Moggie', a very wide gene-pool indeed.

As time passes certain lines will come to the fore and other lines will be discontinued the gene pool will shrink, and the choice of available breeding stock becomes ever smaller. When this happens there is the temptation to use animals which maybe don't quite have the stamina and vitality of previous generations, and so we move ever closer to the slippery slope. The Bicolour is of much more recent creation, and with the ease of importing, currently has a fairly wide international based gene pool.

In any form of livestock, inbreeding or line breeding is the primary tool of the breeder and is in essence the way that breeds are created - you simply cannot create a 'family', let alone a breed, by mating together disparate animals. For well over 40 years I have bred various animals and birds with some degree of success, and have consistently used line breeding to increase the homogeneity of the 'family'.

The prime consideration in the selection of breeding stock has always been health and vitality first, and show qualities second. There is absolutely NO problem inbreeding provided selection is rigorous and not simply on show aspects.

The creation of a 'family' relies on the regular introductions of 'new blood' from outside the family to correct faults & weaknesses, and to improve the qualities of the family. In the past this has always been possible in Oriental cats, but today with a diminishing gene pool there is little if any 'new blood' to be found. There will of course be cats that are very distantly related, but in many cases these animals will be of 'pet' quality and the majority of breeders would not wish to introduce this to their line!

I am in no doubt whatsoever that the Oriental is now at the point where, because the gene pool of the individual groupings is so reduced, the future of the breed is in danger of even further decline. The gene pool is far too small for the breed groupings to be sustained, and has to be widened if the future of the Oriental is to be secured. If you think this is alarmist I suggest that you try writing a list of all the Oriental stud cats available in the UK …. the list is ridiculously short!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat
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eventually certain breeds will be out bred, take the actual british bulldog, it is no longer and that is due to all this extreme breeding.

Anyway, i bet kermit never got to breed :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:32 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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Greeneyes wrote:

Anyway, i bet kermit never got to breed :lol:


Poor Kermit lol.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:42 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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exoticcatlover wrote:
Greeneyes wrote:

Anyway, i bet kermit never got to breed :lol:


Poor Kermit lol.




Image


(apologies to the OP for going so far off topic, but I couldn't help myself!)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:50 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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Ember's Mum wrote:
exoticcatlover wrote:
Greeneyes wrote:

Anyway, i bet kermit never got to breed :lol:


Poor Kermit lol.




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(apologies to the OP for going so far off topic, but I couldn't help myself!)


That's okay, you picture made me smile. Anything that makes me smile is always welcome.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:38 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat
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ohh that picture did make me chuckle!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:30 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat
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Lacemoat wrote:
- Its a forum...you have to be able to handle people will have differing views without resulting to getting irate because they don't share yours.


You have that backwards. I hadn't even stated an opinion on this until another person started bullying others into trying to organize a boycott. And I'm also not the one that feels compelled to reply to each individual post in this thread pro or con. Who is the one not able to handle the varying opinions of others?

Irate is also really not accurate. I'd say exasperated is closer to the mark.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:16 pm 
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cuppa tea anyone?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:47 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat
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Greeneyes wrote:
cuppa tea anyone?


yes, I like chai thanks :D


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:54 am 
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Fenstar wrote:
Greeneyes wrote:
cuppa tea anyone?


yes, I like chai thanks :D


coming right up!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:45 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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We just had a yorkshire tea caddy in the post with a box of 80 tea bags inside - a free gift? or is a higher force at work here :shock:

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