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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:51 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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exoticcatlover wrote:
I don't mean to sound blase but I can see where this post is heading and I would rather not give myself a terminal illness from stressing about different peoples opinions.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I think it's great. It would be boring if we all thought the same thing.

I can see your point but life's too short to give yourself a nose bleed worrying about something that will always happen. I mean, we as the human race are always doing weird things.


No one is suggesting you should get a terminal illness or a nosebleed. :roll:
However "head in the sand" behaviour of which your reaction is an example, is why dogs suffer and why cats suffer from breeding practices that should be highlighted and acted upon.
You are saying, "I don't care if the cat suffers, as long as I like the look of it", "I will buy one anyway" That is hardly grown up, rational and intelligent thinking, is it?

This isn't a designer bag or this season's Laboutin creation, it is a living, breathing animal and should IMO be treated as such.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:51 pm 
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Yes... I think the little cat is cute, but there's a difference between cute and healthy. The breeding extremes in the dog world started off this way too... my crowning speech last year was all about how unhealthy some of those dog breeds have become, and not just because of terminal illness or conditions like HCM -- but because of the very traits the breeders are actively selecting for. Some dog breeds make me want to just cry...


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:26 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

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junglerose wrote:
You are saying, "I don't care if the cat suffers, as long as I like the look of it", "I will buy one anyway" That is hardly grown up, rational and intelligent thinking, is it?



Haha, where in this post have I said this. Seriously, please do not put words in my mouth.

junglerose wrote:

That is hardly grown up, rational and intelligent thinking, is it?



Seriously, I have not insulted you once so please refrain from insinuating that I am stupid, irrational and childish. Seriously not cool. Make love Elaine... not war lol.

junglerose wrote:

This isn't a designer bag or this season's Laboutin creation, it is a living, breathing animal and should IMO be treated as such.


Calm it Kermit. Your only winding yourself up. Send me your address and I will send you a nice cup of tea. One lump or two?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:35 pm 
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exoticcatlover wrote:

Calm it Kermit. Your only winding yourself up. Send me your address and I will send you a nice cup of tea. One lump or two?

Someone say Kermit!?!?
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If I recall correctly Bengals didn't go so good in the beginning either.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:32 am 
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All the breeding shenanigans aside, that cat (TO ME) is ugly! No way would I pay money for that poor thing :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:23 am 
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Fenstar wrote:
All the breeding shenanigans aside, that cat (TO ME) is ugly! No way would I pay money for that poor thing :lol:


I can appreciate that. I know it won't be everyone's cup of tea. The Sphynx is another breed where you either love it or hate it. Beautys in the eye of the beholder. Such a true saying.
There are some humans that I think are pig ugly, But then they find a partner so someone must find them attractive :D


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:10 am 
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extreme breeding only heads one way.............a bad way.

For example, the 'blue' color in staffordshire bull terriers and american pitbulls is terrible. So much extreme breeding just to create this wonderful color, that people forgot how aggressive these dogs can be! 'fighting breeds' are good dogs, very loyal and friendly but one wrong move with their genetics and you're breeding an aggressive and unhealthy pup :cry: I've spent a long time with the staffie dog world and breeding like this never turns out good.

I much prefer the original Siamese, these new world types look like bats crossed with a bad vampire movie character, to me there is nothing appealing about them. But it's not to say someone else won't find them attractive. But I personally feel, after reading up on them that they are an unhealthy version.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:14 am 
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viperkeeper wrote:
exoticcatlover wrote:

Calm it Kermit. Your only winding yourself up. Send me your address and I will send you a nice cup of tea. One lump or two?

Someone say Kermit!?!?
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If I recall correctly Bengals didn't go so good in the beginning either.



This is too funny :) Thanks for lightening the mood as usual :D


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:32 am 
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exoticcatlover wrote:
Fenstar wrote:
All the breeding shenanigans aside, that cat (TO ME) is ugly! No way would I pay money for that poor thing :lol:


I can appreciate that. I know it won't be everyone's cup of tea. The Sphynx is another breed where you either love it or hate it. Beautys in the eye of the beholder. Such a true saying.
There are some humans that I think are pig ugly, But then they find a partner so someone must find them attractive :D


oh yeah, absolutely. And for the record, I love sphynx's! But I can't find a partner so I must be one of the ugly ones :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:52 am 
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Greeneyes wrote:
extreme breeding only heads one way.............a bad way.

For example, the 'blue' color in staffordshire bull terriers and american pitbulls is terrible. So much extreme breeding just to create this wonderful color, that people forgot how aggressive these dogs can be! 'fighting breeds' are good dogs, very loyal and friendly but one wrong move with their genetics and you're breeding an aggressive and unhealthy pup :cry: I've spent a long time with the staffie dog world and breeding like this never turns out good.

I much prefer the original Siamese, these new world types look like bats crossed with a bad vampire movie character, to me there is nothing appealing about them. But it's not to say someone else won't find them attractive. But I personally feel, after reading up on them that they are an unhealthy version.


Exactly. Breeding for cosmetic extremes always dredges up numerous faults, because the focus of breeding is taken away from temperament, health or function.
Dogs/cats get bred from that have issues, because they have the desired cosmetic trait and not because they are good breeding material. Their faulty genetics are magnified by inbreeding and often the same dogs/cats then appear in pedigrees around the world as breeders will clamour for a bit of the extreme animals. All cats/dogs in the breed then have the risk of having the faulty genes of the original "extreme" animals. The Persian is a case in point, 40% of Persians/Exotics have the Polycystic Kidney gene, causing kidney failure and death. The disease became rife, whilst breeders were concentrating on squashed up faces or brachycephaly the medical term for the condition. HCM became rife in Bengals whilst breeders were concentrating on spots.
Breeds can settle down, they can try and eliminate bad genes from the breed, but more often than not, breeders then find a new cosmetic extreme and hive off down that path, again with poor consequences for the animals involved.

Viperkeeper, I realise your attempts here, are an attempt at lightening the mood, however I feel your efforts are misplaced when the health of animals is being discussed.
Inbreeding, genetic disease, poor conformation, poor function and disease are serious topics and should be treated as such.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:19 am 
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junglerose wrote:
Exactly. Breeding for cosmetic extremes always dredges up numerous faults, because the focus of breeding is taken away from temperament, health or function.


Absolutely agree.

My dog is a longcoated white german shepherd - there was a dog in the 70's that although was a standard coated GSD (by that I mean shortcoat black and tan) he produced colours ie white - in the 4 years he was alive he sired over 200 puppies - he then died in his obituary of 'a tired heart' - the truth of the matter is he had idiopathic primary epilepsy and he was seen regularly fitting in the show ring....but because of what he produced he was still used at stud.
40 years later there are dogs with over 500 lines back to him in their pedigrees - because his lines were inbreed on purely to produce coat colour above all else.
My dog has just over 100 lines to him and suffered two massive grand mal seizures in 2010 - if ever there is anything more scary then seeing a 44kg dog who is your world loosing consciousness, loosing his bowel control, and contorting in ways you didn't think possible.....waking up frightened, staggering around. Then sitting an waiting until the next one, not knowing when it will come - 5 months later again it came.........I am now still waiting nearly 2years on. He is lucky however his cousin who also has a similar count of lines and known producers and fitters constantly coming down the lines - well she died last year not even reaching her 6th birthday from Idiopathic epilepsy - she also had cushings disease because of it....but eventually the seizures took hold of her :cry:

My point? - all this heart ache and suffering because breeders wanted a white coat.

I am with Elaine here. Exaggeration and inbreeding to achieve certain looks is NOT the way forward.
I would point out ive not looked into or know anything about the siamese cats - Im talking purely about exaggeration in breeding and its effects not only on the animals......but their owners.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:20 pm 
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Lacemoat wrote:
junglerose wrote:
Exactly. Breeding for cosmetic extremes always dredges up numerous faults, because the focus of breeding is taken away from temperament, health or function.


I would point out ive not looked into or know anything about the siamese cats - Im talking purely about exaggeration in breeding and its effects not only on the animals......but their owners.


Very sorry to hear about your dog and the problems associated with the white colour. So many problems that could be reduced had only the breeders been been more tuned into health as opposed to cosmetics.
Incredible that a dog known for fitting in the show ring sired 200 pups, obviously his demand as a stud dog was not altered by that fact.

I am sure you have seen this but nothing much really changes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTjQuQo8Xds

Siamese/Oriental/Balinese health issues http://www.fabcats.org/breeders/inherit ... /index.php

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:55 pm 
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ah yes PDE - I must say the Cav bit was the bit that upset me the most - especially as the breeder was fully aware of the neurological problem but chose to ignore it and carry on using the dog producing it at stud :roll: (happens all too often)

and thanks for that link - quite a list of problems then....very sad.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:25 pm 
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My kid's godmother breeds her GSD, he is like a big gentle bear, massive fella! He came from a reputable breeder who focused on the temperaments and train-ability over looks. Well, she managed to get the perfect GSD, took out the curved hinde qtrs too. He is suburb, he is an actual nanny dog. Many times when I've gone to stay over at hers with the kids, her GSD would 'Shepard' the kids, if something was wrong, he'd let you know. This is all from breeding correctly, he was not taught the natural skills a dog in his line would need.

She has bred 3 litters from him and all 3 litters are spitting images in their father's temperament and train-ability.

A mutual friend purchased a GSD on it's looks, we told her to avoid doing this and she took no notice. Although her dog was a very beautiful tan/black, she was feisty, hard to train and eventually attacked another dog in a local park. After that attack, her dog tired it's hardest to escape their house/garden and one day when she did, she ran straight towards a child who was eating a hot dog and WHAM, jumped the kid, biting her and then picking up the hotdog and sulked off into a bush. 2 months later, the courts ordered her dog be put down.

I know this is diff from siamese but if it helps point out the issues with wrong breeding, then so be it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:03 pm 
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This thread is ridiculous. It's too bad that we don't have any oriental breeders here to defend themselves, but I do find it disappointing that bengal breeders would be in here throwing mud. To me that's definitely the pot calling the kettle black. Extremes? Cosmetic extremes? BS. So when you are evaluating a cat to be part of your breeding program, and you see one that has especially nice markings you turn it down because it's not mundane enough? lol. No, it jumps right to the top of your list.

And since when does selective breeding equate to in-breeding? For gosh sakes, that breeder even posted the lineage right on their webpage for everyone to see. The gene pool is big enough that there is no need for in-breeding, and the only reason to do it would be laziness. Ordering a breeding stud is about as easy as ordering a pizza.

And all this talk about physical defects as a result of "extreme breeding", and then this being particularly present in the oriental breed.... what evidence is there of this? Certainly the insurance companies don't seem to think there is any such connection. Go ahead and go to one of the big insurance companies and see if the rate would be different for orientals than for bengals. There's certainly no difference in my premiums.

This whole argument basically boils down to somebody not liking the aesthetic that some breeders have gone for. Well you know what? Don't own one then. Why go on a witch hunt and try to bully other people into "boycotting" them simply because you don't like the aesthetic?

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